Could France hold onto the Rhineland?

There's this massive dispute going on in a thread over at nation games and I just wanted input from some of you here.

Basically, could the French Republic (and eventually the French Empire) hold onto the Rhineland until 1885? She gained the region in the Treaty of Campo Formio.

So, thoughts? Is it possible or not? And if so, how? I've seen a few TLs where this happens successfuly, most notable Zach's excellent Napoleon's Victory TL. However, I wanted some input from you guys. :)
 
Oh hell no, that just destroys any semblance of the balance of power and there is no fucking way that the french can assimilate those Germans who will be affected by the rise of nationalism (innevitable by that point) fast enough to be at all capable of holding it.
 
Oh hell no, that just destroys any semblance of the balance of power and there is no fucking way that the french can assimilate those Germans who will be affected by the rise of nationalism (innevitable by that point) fast enough to be at all capable of holding it.

Nice to know that one of the greatest TLs on this site is ASB...
 
Nice to know that one of the greatest TLs on this site is ASB...

Good timelines are allowed more than a little leeway because of the quality of their writing, I consider France holding the Rhineland mostly ASB with that late of a POD barring some ASB attempts at integration of the Germans that the French would not be able to tolerate.
 
Why the hell not? During the French Revolution, the French had the best living standards in Europe. Extend those to the Rheinlanders, and they'll be loyal.
 
Why the hell not? During the French Revolution, the French had the best living standards in Europe. Extend those to the Rheinlanders, and they'll be loyal.
Yeah. If they have a high standard of living, the most they'll ask for is to be part of the Confederation of the Rhine.

There are only two big problems. If a liberal German revolution occurs, then the Germans on the French side of the border most likely will participate. The industrial revolution is a problem. Germans toiling in factories may not be so content with French rule. And to have France still industrialize but nobody be in bad conditions may be handwaving.
 
Why the hell not? During the French Revolution, the French had the best living standards in Europe. Extend those to the Rheinlanders, and they'll be loyal.

Because revolutionary living standards wont be staying forever given how the second war breaks out they're going to be in the middle of it because they're on the frontier and good old nationalism on both their parts Germans wont want to be Francified (and that was a major government activity for much of this period) and the french various non-french nations have every reason to stoke anti-french sentiments due to how this completely destroys the industrial, economic, and military balance of power.
 
It depends on two factors: how the French are treating the German speaking population and what happens in Germany. If the French are forcing the German speaking population to speak French, France is in trouble. Especially as it is combined with a preferable German nationalist state. If the French are willing to accept that part of their country doesn't speak French and has a different culture than .... well actually Paris, than I take the French can safe the Rhineland.
 
It also depends on if there's a united Germany. A united Germany is always going to be enemies of France so long as France rules over a substantial population of German-speakers, and there would probably at least be a large minority of Rhinelanders who want German rule. If Germany is disunited, they could get away with this. As long as France is undefeated in a major land war in Europe, they can keep the Rhineland, but once they hit a rough patch, the Rhineland is out.

As has already been pointed out, a France with the Rhineland is a France that has seriously disrupted the European balance of power, and is likely revolutionary to boot. Neither of these factors are conducive to peace on the Continent. It's certainly possible, but it's difficult, and more likely than not the area ends up breaking off at some point between the POD and the present.
 
Because revolutionary living standards wont be staying forever given how the second war breaks out they're going to be in the middle of it because they're on the frontier and good old nationalism on both their parts Germans wont want to be Francified (and that was a major government activity for much of this period) and the french various non-french nations have every reason to stoke anti-french sentiments due to how this completely destroys the industrial, economic, and military balance of power.
Ehm.

The Rhinelanders were more then happy to be part of the French Empire, actually, and French had become popular among the young intellectuals there.

The issue was that for them, the primarily liberal, burgher-dominated lands had been ruled by conservative, aristocratic princes, and were now replaced by a liberal meritocracy. Where once they as a middle class were chafing under the arbitrary powers of the aristocracy, they now had freedom to partake in positions of power throughout the Empire, with liberal Imperial laws replacing that of the ancien regime. The socio-political structure of the Empire after Napoleon's reforms were highly attractive for many, as now they had an opportunity for advancement that had been so long denied to them. The Empire swept away the old, outmoded feudal system and brought new civil, legal, political, and administrative reforms to the region, which made them highly supportive of the French state, understanding that defeat or restoration of the Rhineland to their former masters would mean a return to feudalism and despotic aristocracy (which it did).

Indeed, the Rhinelanders were among Napoleon's most enthusiastic supporters, and even after 1815 were regarded by the Prussians with suspicion due to their Francophilic tendencies.

The whole "Rhinelanders speak German and thus cannot be assimilated" is not in and of itself a justifiable premise to call it ASB. Social identity is much more fluid then that, and OTL nationalist movements were the result of frustrated romanticism and liberalism in an era of a reactionary Metternichian framework, which stemmed from the "defeat" of liberalism and Enlightenment ideas (embodied by France). The nationalist movements, in an TL in which liberalism triumphs, say, with a surviving Empire or Empire turned Republic, would thus have to draw on different roots. With the continuation of a French Rhineland, the social and political reforms which bound the Empire together would drift the Rhinelanders towards a French identity. And honestly? With the economic center of France moving north and east, so too will French contemporary culture, so it's entirely possible to see a more "German" France.
 
Last edited:
Ehm.

The Rhinelanders were more then happy to be part of the French Empire, actually, and French had become popular among the young intellectuals there.

The issue was that for them, the primarily liberal, burgher-dominated lands had been ruled by conservative, aristocratic princes, and were now replaced by a liberal meritocracy. Where once they as a middle class were chafing under the arbitrary powers of the aristocracy, they now had freedom to partake in positions of power throughout the Empire, with liberal Imperial laws replacing that of the ancien regime. The socio-political structure of the Empire after Napoleon's reforms were highly attractive for many, as now they had an opportunity for advancement that had been so long denied to them. The Empire swept away the old, outmoded feudal system and brought new civil, legal, political, and administrative reforms to the region, which made them highly supportive of the French state, understanding that defeat or restoration of the Rhineland to their former masters would mean a return to feudalism and despotic aristocracy (which it did).

Indeed, the Rhinelanders were among Napoleon's most enthusiastic supporters, and even after 1815 were regarded by the Prussians with suspicion due to their Francophilic tendencies.

The whole "Rhinelanders speak German and thus cannot be assimilated" is not in and of itself a justifiable premise to call it ASB. Social identity is much more fluid then that, and OTL nationalist movements were the result of frustrated romanticism and liberalism in an era of a reactionary Metternichian framework, which stemmed from the "defeat" of liberalism and Enlightenment ideas (embodied by France). The nationalist movements, in an TL in which liberalism triumphs, say, with a surviving Empire or Empire turned Republic, would thus have to draw on different roots. With the continuation of a French Rhineland, the social and political reforms which bound the Empire together would drift the Rhinelanders towards a French identity. And honestly? With the economic center of France moving north and east, so too will French contemporary culture, so it's entirely possible to see a more "German" France.

Interesting. If we are assuming a France that retains its natural borders (ie, everything west of the Rhine) then is it possible France might evolve into a defacto bi-lingual or even tri-lingual nation (incorporating parts of modern Belgium, Luxembourg and the Rhineland)?
 
Interesting. If we are assuming a France that retains its natural borders (ie, everything west of the Rhine) then is it possible France might evolve into a defacto bi-lingual or even tri-lingual nation (incorporating parts of modern Belgium, Luxembourg and the Rhineland)?

Not really. France post-revolution had a fundamental belief that one state needed one language, and that language was French. This applied in Occitania, Brittany and Alsace in our timeline. I don't see why they would change things here.
 
It depends on two factors: how the French are treating the German speaking population and what happens in Germany. If the French are forcing the German speaking population to speak French, France is in trouble. Especially as it is combined with a preferable German nationalist state. If the French are willing to accept that part of their country doesn't speak French and has a different culture than .... well actually Paris, than I take the French can safe the Rhineland.

The population in the rheinland didn't really speak German before annexation by Prussia. They spoke something between Dutch and German and i bet you that someone form Rheinland couldn't understand someone from Bavaria or Prussia in 1800. And the elite spoke French even before the annexation by France. If France can hold into Rheinland physicaly, i think what happened in other parts of France will happen too. Slow assimilation due to the cultural hegemony of France.

Not really. France post-revolution had a fundamental belief that one state needed one language, and that language was French. This applied in Occitania, Brittany and Alsace in our timeline. I don't see why they would change things here.

Actually for most of it's history, their wasn't any real repression of other languages. Immediately after the revolution their were project to translate the laws into the local languages, but it was abandonned due to the cost. Combine the fact that laws are in French, that the administration spoke mostly in French and that military service in France mixed people from different region, i think that what happened in Alsace will happen in the Rheinland to : Slow assimilation with people speaking their language at home, French when they need to, until mass media appear and local languages slowly dissappear.
 
Ehm.

The Rhinelanders were more then happy to be part of the French Empire, actually, and French had become popular among the young intellectuals there.

The issue was that for them, the primarily liberal, burgher-dominated lands had been ruled by conservative, aristocratic princes, and were now replaced by a liberal meritocracy. Where once they as a middle class were chafing under the arbitrary powers of the aristocracy, they now had freedom to partake in positions of power throughout the Empire, with liberal Imperial laws replacing that of the ancien regime. The socio-political structure of the Empire after Napoleon's reforms were highly attractive for many, as now they had an opportunity for advancement that had been so long denied to them. The Empire swept away the old, outmoded feudal system and brought new civil, legal, political, and administrative reforms to the region, which made them highly supportive of the French state, understanding that defeat or restoration of the Rhineland to their former masters would mean a return to feudalism and despotic aristocracy (which it did).

That´s too simplified I think.
I agree that the French revolutionary armies were welcomed in the Rhineland initially. The people were tired of the old "Middle Age" structures. The young intellectuals however were a tiny minority. The burgher dominated towns liked their new freedoms. Initially even the rural regions - where most of the population still lived - saw some improvements.
(Using churches as horse stables might not have been a good idea though.)

However almost two decades of almost constant war took their toll.
Think taxes and sons drafted into the French army year after year.
I´ve read that by the time of the Russian campaign in some regions (French) public servants needed an army escort going to farmer villages to draft sons into the army.

There´s also the fact that the mass armies introduced by the French revolutionary wars relied on "local supplies".
Which means that you - owning a house in a town - could be required to house maybe 2-4 French soldiers. Providing them with a bed and food.
Or if you were a farmer the French army could requisition x% of your harvest at pre-determined prices.
If it happens once or twice you probably grumble and then forget it. Two decades of warfare however will probably strain your patience.

(Not to mention that the Rhineland after 1815 wasn´t returned "to their former masters [which] would mean a return to feudalism and despotic aristocracy". Prussia had already introduced the "General state laws for the Prussian states" in 1794. And the Code Napoleon in his translated / germanized form stayed in power in the Prussian Rhine provinces.)

Indeed, the Rhinelanders were among Napoleon's most enthusiastic supporters, and even after 1815 were regarded by the Prussians with suspicion due to their Francophilic tendencies.

Any region being liberal and Catholic would have been viewed with suspicion by the Protestant Prussians. By 1815 I´m not sure if the Rhineland was still that francophilic / Napoleon enthusiastic. Two decades of war will wear down a lot of enthusiasm.

The whole "Rhinelanders speak German and thus cannot be assimilated" is not in and of itself a justifiable premise to call it ASB. Social identity is much more fluid then that, and OTL nationalist movements were the result of frustrated romanticism and liberalism in an era of a reactionary Metternichian framework, which stemmed from the "defeat" of liberalism and Enlightenment ideas (embodied by France). The nationalist movements, in an TL in which liberalism triumphs, say, with a surviving Empire or Empire turned Republic, would thus have to draw on different roots. With the continuation of a French Rhineland, the social and political reforms which bound the Empire together would drift the Rhinelanders towards a French identity. And honestly? With the economic center of France moving north and east, so too will French contemporary culture, so it's entirely possible to see a more "German" France.

Ehm.
The French revolutionary (citizen mass) armies "exported" revolutionary but also nationalist ideas. And as mentioned above two decades of taxes, housing and supplying French soldiers - not to mention getting your own sons drafted for wars in faraway European countries - tends to cool revolutionary enthusiasm somewhat.

Especially if the French Revolution creates the French Empire with Emperor Napoleon I, lots of newly created Kings and Dukes and whatever.
Throw in Joseph Fouché and I´m a bit puzzled why you think that the French Empire embodies liberalism and enlightenment?

Take Prussia as an example.
In 1806 the defeat of Prussian armies was met with shrugs by the Prussian population. In 1813 the situation had changed a lot.

I think if you want a French Rhineland you either need
- a victorious Napoleon in Russia or
- an end to the wars in 1804/06? Allowing France to slowly assimilate the Rhineland (peace and prosperity). Not an additional decade of warfare with Napoleon.
 
The population in the rheinland didn't really speak German before annexation by Prussia. They spoke something between Dutch and German and i bet you that someone form Rheinland couldn't understand someone from Bavaria or Prussia in 1800. And the elite spoke French even before the annexation by France. If France can hold into Rheinland physicaly, i think what happened in other parts of France will happen too. Slow assimilation due to the cultural hegemony of France.

That´s not quite true.
You can basically group German dialects into four large groups.
"Low German dialects": Northern Germany (including in the past the Dutch language).
"Central German dialects": The "dialect border" to "Low German" in the Rhineland starts somewhere between the towns of Cologne and Duesseldorf.
Plus "Franconian" and "Upper German" dialects.

If you look at a map the region of the Rhineland speaking a "Low German" (Dutch) dialect is just a tiny bit of the whole Rhineland.
People though could understand the dialect spoken next door.

On the other hand you´re totally forgetting Luther.
His translation of the bible was based on "Central German". Which later evolved into "High German". Which was the language used in schools since the late 17th century.

So you would have troubles understanding people in any German rural region. In towns not so much.

Actually for most of it's history, their wasn't any real repression of other languages. Immediately after the revolution their were project to translate the laws into the local languages, but it was abandonned due to the cost. Combine the fact that laws are in French, that the administration spoke mostly in French and that military service in France mixed people from different region, i think that what happened in Alsace will happen in the Rheinland to : Slow assimilation with people speaking their language at home, French when they need to, until mass media appear and local languages slowly dissappear.

Not if events follow our TL (see comments above).
Almost two decades of war (taxes and sons lost) will influence the Rhineland negatively. Louis XIV could conquer Alsace almost undisturbed. His main enemies diverted by other foreign threats.
Here the British are fixated on Napoleon.
You want to travel to Russia as a German soldier in the French army? :D
 
Top