Could France hold on to Algeria

celt

Banned
Would it have been realistic at all for the French to be able to hold on to Algeria or at least a part of it with a large settler presence?
 
Militarily, they could have maintained control over the entire country of Algeria indefinitely. Troops and aircraft from metropolitan France, supported by the non-Arab/Berber population would have been enough to maintain control of the larger towns and keep the roads/ports open. There were also around100,000 Muslims bearing arms in support of the French regime, a figure that was probably comparable to the number of FLN members actually engaged in violence.

The real challenge for keeping France in Algeria was political. The Fourth Republic's governments did not last long, and the seemingly intractable conflict in Algeria excacerbated conflicts between the political parties, and well as between the military and the government. Many soldiers, especially those on the ground suspected that leftists in Paris were either defeatists, or seeking to maneuver them into a military defeat such as had taken place in Vietnam. The parties of the Left in turn saw the conflict as immoral, and many were openly sympathetic to the aims of the FLN.

It was, of course, a military coup designed to thwart negotiations with the FLN that brought De Gaulle to power. I don't think that preventing the coup and letting the Fourth Republic muddle along would change the dynamics of the conflict very much. But without De Gaulle, a fragile Fourth Republic government would have a harder time committing to peace, especially when it was apparent that there would be no real place for the million or so Europeans living in Algeria under any non-French government.
 
If france managed to advoid both world wars and concentrated on settling their colonies then yes they could have maintained their hold on Algeria.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
All of it? If so, only militarily. The FLN has thoroughly infiltrated most of the country and the civic administration was non existent after 1958 outside of most of the cities.

Realistically, the French could have partitioned Algeria, keeping Oran and the area around it, along with maybe Bone and its surrounding areas. These would be enclaves with high European populations, along with high Sephardic Jew populations. The FLN might accept this if they can get population transfers.
 
Possible with a few PoD

*No Crémieux decree
It gave citizenship to jews and everyone else but arabs and kabyles in Algeria and was a source of frustration

*Arabs not asked to fight in WWII

*No Dien Bien Phu:
After WWII, the defeat in Indochina showed the colonies the French army could be beaten by colonised people. No defeat of that magnitude keeps the idea from spreading that much AND it makes the army less trigger happy in the early days of the Algerian conflict, leading to less resentment in the population

*And the biggest: Give citizenship to war veterans
Quite a few arabs fought in WWI and when they came back they were still oppressed as arabs. A politically defensible move, even against Pieds-Noirs would be to give full French citizenship to the war veterans, blood for citizenship as per the old Roman custom. It would give hope to the arabs that the situation is not as locked as it was. It also open the door to arabs being full citizen. I think it was debated in the 20's but I'm not sure.

Long term this will not be enough, especially with a growing arabic citizen class but this would be a way to open dialogue.



We have to remember the FLN only really took shape in the 50's. Although parties clamoring for autonomy and better rights existed before, they didn't want full independance.
 
The Pieds-Noir at their largest were only about 10% of Algeria's population. So either there would have had to have been a much larger drive to get french citizens to settle there (starting in the 19th century) or grant full french citizenship rights to all Algerians and have Algeria become like any other metropolitan french region.
 
Mitchell said:
The Pieds-Noir at their largest were only about 10% of Algeria's population. So either there would have had to have been a much larger drive to get french citizens to settle there (starting in the 19th century) or grant full french citizenship rights to all Algerians and have Algeria become like any other metropolitan french region.

Well, it was organised in départements and technically a full part of France, like Corsica, at least legally.

Perception of it still made it a colony in the métropole, combined with racism against the Pieds Noirs, from the metropolitans
 
Well, it was organised in départements and technically a full part of France, like Corsica, at least legally.

Perception of it still made it a colony in the métropole, combined with racism against the Pieds Noirs, from the metropolitans

No, what it made it perceived as a colony was that the majority of the population in Algerian departments "technically a full part of France" were not "fully French" 'like Corsicans,' not to mention the Government-General, bank, currency, indigenous code, assembly, senate, etc. all unique to Algérie française and all designed to maintain the minority-dominant settler colony that it was.
 
Essam said:
No, what it made it perceived as a colony was that the majority of the population in Algerian departments "technically a full part of France" were not "fully French" 'like Corsicans,' not to mention the Government-General, bank, currency, indigenous code, assembly, senate, etc. all unique to Algérie française and all designed to maintain the minority-dominant settler colony that it was.

Oh yeah, not denying it was an apartheid regime, one can hardly argue with that, with tools made for it.
To nitpick, the arabs were French, just not citizen (but that's entirely nitpicking). The system was kept in place by a strong will of the Pieds-Noirs community and a lack of will by the metropolitan authorities.

It was however technically a fully formed group of département as opposed to a colony or a territory like AEF or Cochinchine. That point should not be dismissed as it was why Algeria was held on to as it was and why it was so traumatic to lose it. Algeria was not a colony, Algeria was an integral part of France.
 

guinazacity

Banned
Oh yeah, not denying it was an apartheid regime, one can hardly argue with that, with tools made for it.
To nitpick, the arabs were French, just not citizen (but that's entirely nitpicking). The system was kept in place by a strong will of the Pieds-Noirs community and a lack of will by the metropolitan authorities.

It was however technically a fully formed group of département as opposed to a colony or a territory like AEF or Cochinchine. That point should not be dismissed as it was why Algeria was held on to as it was and why it was so traumatic to lose it. Algeria was not a colony, Algeria was an integral part of France.

A very weird place indeed. a part of france where most of the people lived like a colony. You gotta admire the necessary mental gymnastics for a nation to basically justify an apartheid regime in an integral part of a country based in the values of the french revolution.
 
Guinazacity said:
A very weird place indeed. a part of france where most of the people lived like a colony. You gotta admire the necessary mental gymnastics for a nation to basically justify an apartheid regime in an integral part of a country based in the values of the french revolution.

France is a catholic country, we're used to concept that don't make sense :D
 
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