I really don't know if that holds any truth beyond being a Fine Gael tale to discredit De Valera. Although they barely need help these days, with all the Dev bashing.
Could DeValera have declared war on Germany
- Thread starter Derek Jackson
- Start date
I really don't know if that holds any truth beyond being a Fine Gael tale to discredit De Valera. Although they barely need help these days, with all the Dev bashing.
Cook
Banned
That sounds highly questionable to say the least, especially given the very high proportion of Anglo-Irish in the British Army at the time. In any case it is something that the British cabinet would never have agreed to.
Churchill did try to revive the basing rights agreement that Britain had had with the Free State before the war which would have allowed anti-submarine aircraft to operate further out into the Atlantic. He rightly pointed out that the convoys under attack were supplying both Britain and Ireland.
usertron2020
Donor
1) The problem was, "ambivalence" wasn't what they got, was it?
2) This was AFTER the death camps had been liberated. At the most, you could send a minor state/foreign affairs official. Not the Prime Minister. He utterly demeaned his office for the rest of his life. He could keep getting re-elected in Dublin, but to the outside world he was dog food.
After the Easter Uprising, though De Valera's sentence may have been commuted, with his body and mind getting out of prison, his soul spent the rest of his natural life in a British jail cell, waiting to die.
Not exactly the kind of man you want making the decisions upon which to base your nation's future.Actually he is. Considering he asserted Ireland's independence as completely and separate from Britain, and considering that my family are loyal Fianna Failers, I very much do think he was the right man for the job.1) The problem was, "ambivalence" wasn't what they got, was it?
2) This was AFTER the death camps had been liberated. At the most, you could send a minor state/foreign affairs official. Not the Prime Minister. He utterly demeaned his office for the rest of his life. He could keep getting re-elected in Dublin, but to the outside world he was dog food.
After the Easter Uprising, though De Valera's sentence may have been commuted, with his body and mind getting out of prison, his soul spent the rest of his natural life in a British jail cell, waiting to die.
Also I said ambivalence was the best they could have hoped for. In the eyes of the government, they were traitors. Its not as if De Valera personally screwed over all those who chose to serve in the British Armed forces, he had plenty of cohorts along with him. Also my great grandfather fought in WW1 for the British, he was ashamed of his service and threw away the medals he received. Not to mention that those who went to join the British Army couldn't have expected a warm reception from the government.
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Still haven't answered the "death camps already opened" point.
Already answered that a while ago. De Valera was giving the British the middle finger. Just like he did when he refused access to the ports. You can't take the letter as him giving support to the Holocaust, because that makes no sense. De Valera and Ireland never even maintained particularly good relations with the Germans, so when you see him sending the letter of condolences to the German people, he could really care less about the German people.
Pangur
Donor
The whole history of Ireland and WW2 is far from simple. Here are a few things to consider
There was cooperation between the British forces in the north and Dublin at a military level. This was as part of plan to handle a German invasion Reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_W
After 1942 allied flyers that came down over Ireland were driven to the border and they were back with their units as quickly as was possble
The over all sentiment was one of "Yes we are neutral, neutral against Germany"
To expect Eire to join Britain is a huge ask. The war of Independence was less that 20 years previous. Far too many memories to allow for British forces to be acceptable .
As for the IRA and the Germans, true they were leaning towards to Germans on the basis of an enemy of an enemy, nothing else. As for the Blue Shirts they would have been 100% in the British camp.
I can however see two ways that could have De Valera declaing war on Germany
1: German invasion of any part of Ireland (the south is clear cut, the north is a strong chance.)
2ost US coming into the war where US forces are based in the south
There was cooperation between the British forces in the north and Dublin at a military level. This was as part of plan to handle a German invasion Reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_W
After 1942 allied flyers that came down over Ireland were driven to the border and they were back with their units as quickly as was possble
The over all sentiment was one of "Yes we are neutral, neutral against Germany"
To expect Eire to join Britain is a huge ask. The war of Independence was less that 20 years previous. Far too many memories to allow for British forces to be acceptable .
As for the IRA and the Germans, true they were leaning towards to Germans on the basis of an enemy of an enemy, nothing else. As for the Blue Shirts they would have been 100% in the British camp.
I can however see two ways that could have De Valera declaing war on Germany
1: German invasion of any part of Ireland (the south is clear cut, the north is a strong chance.)
2
ost US coming into the war where US forces are based in the south
A huge German fleet carrying an invasion force sufficient enough to invade Ireland won't get far if it attempts to freely leave port for the high seas and bypass Britain. The Royal Navy will crush it, and since the RN will rapidly cut its supply lines if it somehow, perhaps by surprise and speed, reaches the Irish coast and does manage to land a force, the RN will immediately act to cut its supply lines, while the Irish Air Corps and Royal Air Force will deal with any attempts to resupply them by air, so the Germans will run out of supplies and have to surrender to the Irish Army. To be honest, Operation Green is as doomed as Operation Sealion.
A huge German fleet carrying an invasion force sufficient enough to invade Ireland won't get far if it attempts to freely leave port for the high seas and bypass Britain. The Royal Navy will crush it, and since the RN will rapidly cut its supply lines if it somehow, perhaps by surprise and speed, reaches the Irish coast and does manage to land a force, the RN will immediately act to cut its supply lines, while the Irish Air Corps and Royal Air Force will deal with any attempts to resupply them by air and will conduct airstrikes on German forces. The Germans will eventually run out of supplies and have to surrender to the small and poorly equipped Irish Army. To be honest, Operation Green is as doomed as Operation Sealion.
Pangur
Donor
Agreed however I don't recall suggesting that the plan had any chance of working as it did not. Basically a snowball in hells chance. I was however listing the scenarios under which a De Valera gov would declare war on Germany
Could Dev had pulled it off? Likely. Dev was a deft political operator, after all. Would he, however? Highly unlikely; he was one of the main proponents of neutrality (although neutrality had broad based support from members of both Fine Fail and Fine Gael.)
Certainly, despite their neutrality, the Irish government was much friendlier to the Allies than the Axis. German pilots who were shot down and escaped to Irish territoroy were held, while Allied pilots often found themselves handed over to their own government no worse for the wear. During the firebombing of Belfast the Dublin fire department was rushed north to help with the crisis as well. There is that rather embarrassing condolence letter sent to Germany after Hitler's suicide, of course, but generally the Republic of Ireland leaned Ally, while still maintaining its neutrality.
Honestly, the Irish as fullblown members of the Allies would have worked out in Ireland's favor in the long run. After the end of the war, the American diplomatic circles held a grudge against Ireland for not joining in the fight, from the 1940s until, at the earliest, the 1970s, if not later. If Ireland had joined the fight, they might have found a somewhat-more hospitable ear once the Troubles truely broke out.
But the problem remains Dev; neutrality was popular, and as one of its biggest supporters he couldn't shift course. To get an Allied Ireland, I think you need to have a POD which goes back to the Civil War at the latest. others have mentioned Collins surviving; he certainly would have been the leader of Fine Gael, and would have crafted that party into a united and dynamic force in its own right. But that would have lead to a very different ireland than the one we know.
Certainly, despite their neutrality, the Irish government was much friendlier to the Allies than the Axis. German pilots who were shot down and escaped to Irish territoroy were held, while Allied pilots often found themselves handed over to their own government no worse for the wear. During the firebombing of Belfast the Dublin fire department was rushed north to help with the crisis as well. There is that rather embarrassing condolence letter sent to Germany after Hitler's suicide, of course, but generally the Republic of Ireland leaned Ally, while still maintaining its neutrality.
Honestly, the Irish as fullblown members of the Allies would have worked out in Ireland's favor in the long run. After the end of the war, the American diplomatic circles held a grudge against Ireland for not joining in the fight, from the 1940s until, at the earliest, the 1970s, if not later. If Ireland had joined the fight, they might have found a somewhat-more hospitable ear once the Troubles truely broke out.
But the problem remains Dev; neutrality was popular, and as one of its biggest supporters he couldn't shift course. To get an Allied Ireland, I think you need to have a POD which goes back to the Civil War at the latest. others have mentioned Collins surviving; he certainly would have been the leader of Fine Gael, and would have crafted that party into a united and dynamic force in its own right. But that would have lead to a very different ireland than the one we know.
Pangur
Donor
That in IMHO is very much the case. I seem to remember being told that the policy of neutrality was on of being pragmatic however since the WW2 the Irish people have very much taken the idea to heart.
So true. For starters had Ireland joined in fully with the allies then at a min the infrastructure that would have been build (ports, air bases as examples) would have helped post war to develop the country and perhaps have avoided the awful depression of the 50`s as well the social decline into a near enough church run state. Would Ireland have been attacked by air? certainly, would there have been lives lost on battle fields? yes however on that score they did die expect they were wearing British and other allied uniforms.
As for a POD, no black and tans for starters and no auxies either. That may be enough as it happens.
Oh, certainly! Personally, I've always wanted to do it, but my knowledge of Irish history during this period has atrophied over thep ast few year,s while in Grad School. I'd love to see someone tacle it!
Another one, I'm fascinated by:
When Dev's family arrived in America to take him back to Ireland, they were only a few days ahead of his, recognized, grandfather who was coming to take him to Cuba (Dev was born illegitmately, and there had always been some suspicions that the man his Mother claimed was his father, a Cuban-American immigrant, really was not. I've always bought this claim, but not without some revervations).
So, lets say that Dev's Grandfather arrives earlier and whisps the young boy off to Cuba. Assuming that Dev is fated to get invovled in politics one way or another (not a completely ASB idea, considering his personality, although it may take some handwaving) he becomes a Cuban revolutionary ... President Eammon DeVelera of Cuba, anyone
HJ Tulp
Donor
I've seen this argument a couple of times now and it doesn't really make sense to me. Ofcourse it was easy to get the Allied pilots back to their units. They just had to cross the border. If the Irish wanted to get the Germans back to Germany how the hell are they going to do that? There is no way of getting anyone from Ireland to Germany anyway.
What has always damned Ireland in my eyes is their refusal to give the British basing rights (which they were obligated by treaty to give) to fight the Battle of the Atlantic with costing thousands of lives in the Merchant Marine.
Oh yes!So, lets say that Dev's Grandfather arrives earlier and whisps the young boy off to Cuba. Assuming that Dev is fated to get invovled in politics one way or another (not a completely ASB idea, considering his personality, although it may take some handwaving) he becomes a Cuban revolutionary ... President Eammon DeVelera of Cuba, anyone
Pangur
Donor
Before 1942 allied fliers were interned as well as Germans. An odd story on the matter is that on pilot, Yank I think in the RAF and as was the practice the Irish used to leave the internees's out on day release after giving their word they would return. This guy legged it north only to be returned to the Irish. Post 1942 the Irish did not even bother intern them rather they drove them to the border and they started to release the guys who had been locked up.
The basing rights would have been in regards to the three treaty ports. True enough there was an obligation to do so however at the time what was the recent past make allowing British forces back was not an option.
the basing right were given up as part of the resolution of the anglo irish trade war, in 1938 . Neville chamberlain and dev signed an agreement that amongst other things handed the treaty ports back to Ireland..... so there wasn't a treaty obligation. Ireland wasn't even a full commonwealth country, since 1937 (Bunreacht na hÉireann) but some sort of weird hybrid that no one really know what they were ( ie . during official diplomatic receptions in London, ireland was presented after the commonwealth countries but before any other country)
apart from that i agree with most of the other statements, ireland was neutral but very pro allied, to get ireland into the war you'd had have to get rid of dev, yes the signing the book of condolences was a snide, pointless, damaging, shortsighted, pedantic for the sake of being pedantic (but only when it suited him) deliberately provocative and decisive thing to do, and all to just p**S off the English, and the long term affects like the negative effect on the attitude of many countries to Ireland after the war weren't though of, or more likely they were but would have been ignored.
but neutrality wasn't all bad, like someone else pointed out Ireland was pretty poorly equipped, if they did join (pre the US joining the war) then that would have been the defenses of the uk even more stretched as it had to include Ireland. The naval bases would have made life a bit easier during the really bad bit of the battle of the Atlantic but it wouldn't have prevented the boots having the success they did.. just moderated it a wee bit. The defeat of the u boats only came with better tactics, equipment and of course being able to read the enigma codes helped a bit
yes the north was offered for entry of the war, twice actually,(if memory serves me right), but rejected. maybe that was because of fear of a back lash for joining on Britons side but the IRA was well under the leash (no problem with interment when he was doing the interning!! - refer to the previous glib remark about when it suited him!!) but probably because getting the north back was like lots of things that were part of devs platform... great to talk about it but didnt really want it when you got down to it. It (getting the north back) would have robbed him of a stick to beat the uk about, it would have brought a large group of people couldn't expect to get votes from , it would have started earlier than did happen in reallife a reduction of the influence of the catholic church .... and lots of other stuff
that my 2 cents (or rather more that that
In terms of an AH TL there was a small one on changing times (I think that's it) with Dev not getting the ceasefire order and as a result being injured. This leads to Collins being in charge and the outline goes from there. I have it saved if anyone wants to read it.
To be honest I think it could be a base for a good tl.
To be honest I think it could be a base for a good tl.