Could continued scientific racism and Darwinism without WW1 lead to a anti-Christian Europe

Basically without ww1 and especially ww2 discrediting imperialism, Darwinism, eugenics, and scientific racism could some Europeans groups or even nations become anti-Christian? Could you have Europeans start seeing Christianity as a foreign religion from the Middle East and as a threat to their nation? Besides just having your typical left wing secularism or communist atheism against Christianity in Europe you now also have growing right wing secularism(many being racial Darwinist) and nationalistic paganism(symbolic in nature) also opposing Christianity seeing it unpatriotic and morally corrupt. Could a situation like this develop in Europe?
 
Basically without ww1 and especially ww2 discrediting imperialism, Darwinism, eugenics, and scientific racism could some Europeans groups or even nations become anti-Christian? Could you have Europeans start seeing Christianity as a foreign religion from the Middle East and as a threat to their nation? Besides just having your typical left wing secularism or communist atheism against Christianity in Europe you now also have growing right wing secularism(many being racial Darwinist) and nationalistic paganism(symbolic in nature) also opposing Christianity seeing it unpatriotic and morally corrupt. Could a situation like this develop in Europe?
Nazi Germany was this, but that needed World War 1 to happen so....I don't know what to tell you.
 
WWII certainly discredited scientific racism and caused the decline of imperialism, but WWI led to the rise of fascism, under which those ideas thrived. Certainly there were Darwinist etc thinkers in Europe prior to WWI. But to my knowledge, no real political movement based on them. WWI ushered in such movements. I think the only way Europe could've become anti-christian was for fascism to be more successful. That way its core ideas would've been viewed as keys to success not ruin. Mussolini, even Adolf, had to pay lip service to christianity but given more time they could've undermined it.
 
Nazi Germany was this, but that needed World War 1 to happen so....I don't know what to tell you.
It doesn’t have to be a no world war 1 pod if you can think of a other way for it happen. I just thought that was the mostly likely case for it except for the Nazis. I just don’t like Nazis pods so I don’t always mention them. Also a Nazis pod probably means something like this would mostly be restricted to Germany itself and maybe a few other Germanic countries. Fascist in Catholic countries often sided and worked with the church. Clerical fascism or elements of it is common in Catholic fascist nations like France, Croatia, Spain, and Portugal. Italy would maybe shift that way too after Mussolini dies if the fascist regime survives there
 

elkarlo

Banned
Nazi Germany was this, but that needed World War 1 to happen so....I don't know what to tell you.
I dunno Conrad was actually a fan of Islam. Felt Christianity was too soft. Some others felt that way as well. Seemed that Christianity wasn't gaining in popularity right before WWI
 
WWII certainly discredited scientific racism and caused the decline of imperialism, but WWI led to the rise of fascism, under which those ideas thrived. Certainly there were Darwinist etc thinkers in Europe prior to WWI. But to my knowledge, no real political movement based on them. WWI ushered in such movements. I think the only way Europe could've become anti-christian was for fascism to be more successful. That way its core ideas would've been viewed as keys to success not ruin. Mussolini, even Adolf, had to pay lip service to christianity but given more time they could've undermined it.
Hitler and the Nazis I could definitely see trying to get rid of Christianity in their nation after the war but ironically they probably made European more Christian for at least a decade or two if they win and if they successfully completed their genocide. They would have killed off a lot of Slavs in USSR who are irreligious and killed off a lot of other non religious left wingers. Fascism in Catholic and Orthodox countries tied themselves to Christianity. Italy was the exception but that could change easily after Mussolini. It would be interesting to see a Sino-Soviet like schism within a Nazi Cold War pod where the fascist bloc break between the Germans and Italy. The Italian Bloc(Latin Bloc) being more traditional fascist and right wingers and the Nazi bloc going more of the way of Himmler. The Latin Bloc could include Italy, Romania, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, and Vichy France who are more clerical fascist, reactionary, assimilationist, and traditional conservatives. The Nazis Bloc could include Germany, Finland, Netherlands, and the Nordic countries who are extreme racial purist and totalitarian. The conflict between the two blocs being race and religion. The Nazis want to replace Christianity with neo-paganism or a Nazi version of irreligion. The Latin Bloc wants to support and expand the church and Christian values(by a fascist view point). Race wise the Nazis want to either Exterminate or exploited people the deem lesser while many Latin Bloc nations while not treating foreign people kindly prefer to try and assimilate them into their culture when possible especially given that many have oversea colonies.
 
I dunno Conrad was actually a fan of Islam. Felt Christianity was too soft. Some others felt that way as well. Seemed that Christianity wasn't gaining in popularity right before WWI
Many Nazis hated Christianity because of its Semitic and Jewish ties. Many who hate Christianity for racial reasons will see Islam as similar to Christianity and hate it for similar reasons. If the Nazis go batshit crazy after the war with its racial ideology most Muslims and Islam will not be viewed as an “Aryan” religion in anyway.
 
I don't see how "Scientific Racism" could survive that much longer. The more and more we learned about genetics the more and more ridiculous it looked. There is no real way of stopping that process.
 
It would be interesting to see a Sino-Soviet like schism within a Nazi Cold War pod where the fascist bloc break between the Germans and Italy. The Italian Bloc(Latin Bloc) being more traditional fascist and right wingers and the Nazi bloc going more of the way of Himmler. The Latin Bloc could include Italy, Romania, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, and Vichy France who are more clerical fascist, reactionary, assimilationist, and traditional conservatives. The Nazis Bloc could include Germany, Finland, Netherlands, and the Nordic countries who are extreme racial purist and totalitarian. The conflict between the two blocs being race and religion. The Nazis want to replace Christianity with neo-paganism or a Nazi version of irreligion. The Latin Bloc wants to support and expand the church and Christian values(by a fascist view point). Race wise the Nazis want to either Exterminate or exploited people the deem lesser while many Latin Bloc nations while not treating foreign people kindly prefer to try and assimilate them into their culture when possible especially given that many have oversea colonies.

There might've been such a split, but given the overwhelming strength of the Reich vis a vis other fascist states, I think it would've dominated them ideologically as well as politically. If the nazis prevailed in the war they wouldn't have tolerated a political break but kept the other states within their orbit, and ultimately imposed their views sort of like the USSR in eastern Europe.
 
Many Nazis hated Christianity because of its Semitic and Jewish ties.

Not just that. The doctrine itself, with its "blessed are the meek" was utterly contrary to their worldview.

Many who hate Christianity for racial reasons will see Islam as similar to Christianity and hate it for similar reasons. If the Nazis go batshit crazy after the war with its racial ideology most Muslims and Islam will not be viewed as an “Aryan” religion in anyway.

Well, at one time Adolf was impressed by something he heard from a delegation of arabs. They said that if they had won at Tours in 732 CE Europe, including Germany, would be muslim, and Islam was better suited to the German temperament. Instead of humility, Islam favors conquest. Adolf didn't think the "inferior" arabs would've remained in control but he did think that Islam or just about any other creed would've been better than christianity.
 
It would be hard to convert the majority of any country to a different religion. In most places religion is not just religion but part of the culture and society on many levels that have nothing to do with religion itself. People would have to be taught the reinvent their own identities.

Just look at how the soviets tried to suppress religion for generations and how shortly after the fall of communism Religion was there again all over the place.

If you want to get a non-christian Europe you would need to go back to some point like the French revolution and seriously twist and ramp up things.

You couldn't just go to 19xx and expect that some reasonable changes would change anything about how people in rural villages all over Europe thought about the church.
 
I don't see how "Scientific Racism" could survive that much longer. The more and more we learned about genetics the more and more ridiculous it looked. There is no real way of stopping that process.
Scientific racism relating to genetics will probably end when advances in science proves that is completely wrong and racial differences are very minor genetically but science and Darwinism can still be used to justify cultural superiority over other groups. People might stop thinking Africans and Asians are naturally below whites but still think European culture is better for a variety of reasons. For example, the Gun, Germs, and Steel book point can be easily twisted or altered to fit that point. Europeans can use geography, historical situations, and the influence of Greco-Roman culture on the foundation of western civilization as the main argument on why Europe was more successful and better. Instead of Africans and Asians being seen as inferior by nature they are now seen as just behind Europe due to situation, geography, or bad luck. Europeans start seeing the people around the world as needing westernization(in actual practice not just lip service) until the are brought up to the same level as Europeans cultural at which point they are considered equal. Europeans could argue European cultures that lack or abandoned Roman or Greek culture fell behind. This includes Celtic people(Irish, Scottish, and Welsh) who eventually all got conquered by England who had the most Roman and German influence of any of the Isle regions. Germany, Scandinavia, Russia, and even Japan could be argued saw progress with the adoption of western/Greco-Roman cultural elements. Western Europe could say Russia backwardness and Japan shortcomings are due to lack of full westernization pointing to Germany and Scandinavia as examples of nations that fully adopted westernization and became equal to or even better then the Roman descendants even those the Germans and Nordic people use to be barbarians. Europeans could argue North Africa use to be a more wealthy and successful place which even outclassed much of Europe at the time because of Roman influence but the take over of Islam destroyed that. Arguements like this could be considered valid by many considering how things progress and how they are presented especially with a bit of historical revision by the people doing it.
 
I don't see how "Scientific Racism" could survive that much longer. The more and more we learned about genetics the more and more ridiculous it looked. There is no real way of stopping that process.

Climate change denial, anti-vaccination sentiment, and creationism still have (or at least recently had) a significant degree of support and influence in politics in the United States, despite the lack of any real scientific support for those positions.
 
Could scientific racism transition into cultural superiority concept similar to the idea of Romanization? Europeans view imperialism as justified on moral, economic, and cultural grounds.
Climate change denial, anti-vaccination sentiment, and creationism still have (or at least recently had) a significant degree of support and influence in politics in the United States, despite the lack of any real scientific support for those positions.
I do feel like most climate change deniers don’t actually believe it. They just don’t care about the climate change and will deal with that when it comes. Also I think many people see economic gains in the world warming and the ice caps melting.
 
Considering that the world is not nearly as hot as projected in the 1990's I think it is safe to assume by now the lower projections are the correct ones. We are talking 1 or 2 C not 4,5 or 6.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Considering that the world is not nearly as hot as projected in the 1990's I think it is safe to assume by now the lower projections are the correct ones. We are talking 1 or 2 C not 4,5 or 6.
... and they are also simply that :
projections with as much 'reality-worth' as other projections.

Unfortunatly nature (including astro-mechanics => Three-Body-Problem) doesn't work along linear ways but on exponetial as well as threshold (straw-that-breaks-a-camels-back) as well as on chaotic combinations of all of these. And in terms of climate you have rathe a ... few more factors/bodies to incorporate.

Good luck on your next holiday at the Maledives during monsoon-period ...

I don't see how "Scientific Racism" could survive that much longer. The more and more we learned about genetics the more and more ridiculous it looked. There is no real way of stopping that process.
... because "we" were actually looking and researching into that direction due to the horrors of racism encountered with WW1, interwar period and WW2. ... though ... there were still quite some 'research' into the opposite direction after WW2 ... with some prison-inmates in the US of A i.e., trying to find correlations between ethnical origins, blood types and criminality rates.

You know what intelligence tests test ?
Not intelligence.
Only whats asked in their [everytime different] question

Scientific research of whatever kind mostly finds only what you ask for. And if you ask for "race doesn't matter" than you will find such results or interprete their results accordingly. ... unfortunatly it works the other way around also.
ITTL there are many more 'studies' imaginable, that show into the other direction with the 'proper' study design regarding 'racial differences' and their effects on creating 'superior' culture and civilization ... whatever you determine as 'superior'.
 
... and they are also simply that :
projections with as much 'reality-worth' as other projections.

Unfortunatly nature (including astro-mechanics => Three-Body-Problem) doesn't work along linear ways but on exponetial as well as threshold (straw-that-breaks-a-camels-back) as well as on chaotic combinations of all of these. And in terms of climate you have rathe a ... few more factors/bodies to incorporate.

Good luck on your next holiday at the Maledives during monsoon-period ...

... because "we" were actually looking and researching into that direction due to the horrors of racism encountered with WW1, interwar period and WW2. ... though ... there were still quite some 'research' into the opposite direction after WW2 ... with some prison-inmates in the US of A i.e., trying to find correlations between ethnical origins, blood types and criminality rates.

You know what intelligence tests test ?
Not intelligence.
Only whats asked in their [everytime different] question

Scientific research of whatever kind mostly finds only what you ask for. And if you ask for "race doesn't matter" than you will find such results or interprete their results accordingly. ... unfortunatly it works the other way around also.
ITTL there are many more 'studies' imaginable, that show into the other direction with the 'proper' study design regarding 'racial differences' and their effects on creating 'superior' culture and civilization ... whatever you determine as 'superior'.
It would be interesting to see how eugenics develop since it would likely continue in this pod and not be discredited. I agree with the main point of eugenics but all the racial stuff added to it taints it greatly and in otl is the reason it is currently viewed as taboo even those things like abortion is technically a form of it but supporters of that don’t associate with it anymore due to public perception relating to the history of eugenics. I think the founders of plan parenthood were part of the eugenics movement. Even if racial science die out like otl but in a no world wars pod that gives eugenics a much better chance of continuing but hopefully minus the racial elements. This could have some major effects. Continue eugenics movement would probably cause a massive drop in the disabled populations in many first world nations or regions. Many disables can be detected before birth and eugenics would encourage an abortion which some governments might support. Positive would be more focus towards athletics and physical conditioning within education but eugenics also might lead to performance enhancers being seen in a more positive light and maybe even within sports. Eugenics supporters might argue performance enhancers are good and they just need to figure out how to eliminate or lessen the more negative effects of them while keeping the positive ones. Countries might even try to keep creating uber or super soldiers by using drugs and performance enhancing methods. Captain America was basically created by being injected by a super version of steroids. They probably would not be able to copy that in real life but the concept is similar.
 
It is much more likely that "scientific racists"--to the extent that they will be politically relevant--- will argue (as the Nazis did, at least in public) that "racial science" and Christianity "properly understood" are entirely compatible.
 
It is much more likely that "scientific racists"--to the extent that they will be politically relevant--- will argue (as the Nazis did, at least in public) that "racial science" and Christianity "properly understood" are entirely compatible.
Yes but that is a hard point to sell especially in the long run. Jesus is Jewish and you had a few Nazis publicly say Nazi racial laws would target Jesus like any other Jew. Most anti-Semitic people before the Nazis were religiously anti-Semitic not racial. They only hated Jews who practiced or identified as such. They didn’t hate Jews who converted to Christianity or people who had Jewish relatives by blood unlike the Nazis. Major Nazis leaders tried to tip toe around the Christian issue until they thought they could better deal with it. Nazis targeting of Jews especially by blood makes Christianity very hard to incorporate within Nazism in the long run without looking completely hypocritical. You can maybe twist Christianity to support racist attitudes about Slavs and blacks but not Jews due to the Jewish influence and history with the religion that anyone can easily point out. Christianity only can be twisted to support religious anti-semitism not racial ones. Nazis understood this and many planned to try to slowly rid Christianity after the war. Many Nazis supporters often looked the other way or ignored Nazis anti Christian undertones. Also the Christian Churches especially the Catholic one presented the most possible and open form of opposition to Nazis rule. Nazis could kill a full blooded German priest or religious figure like other groups without upsetting many Germans at home. After the war if they win Hitler, Himmler, and few others will probably use the popularity boost and success of the war to target Christianity more
 
Without World War I, a largely secularized, technocratic Europe is possible, but it won't be overtly anti-Christian as most of the continent is likely to remain nominally under Christian monarchies linked to whatever faith is privileged in the realm.
 
Top