Could Charles V have partitioned things differently?

raharris1973

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For that I think we'd need Philipp the fair to live longer.

The only reason I say this is because I'm not sure how much sway Maximilian I had over Charles, the marriage treaty was organised in 1515 and I think by then Charles had been granted/had his majority recognised as a compromise with the local nobility with Maximilian (and some French input as well I believe), same thing had happened with Philipp the fair who's majority was recognised when I think he was 16, so Maximilian wouldn't have input in the affairs of the low countries. I guess it was easier to arrange for Ferdinand a minor (he was 12 I think) than the emancipated Charles who could reject it. Also according to wikipedia, Charles was under the sway of William of Croy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Croÿ), who manoeuvred this emancipation and influenced him away from his aunt, Margaret, who'd been appoint regent on Charles's behalf by Maximilian. William would go on to convince Charles to cancel his initial engagement to Isabella of Portugal for Mary Tudor among other things (which was later shuffled back again later, probably wasn't hard to convince Charles he's not married and so he sowed his wild oats, he had like 3 kids before he married Isabella; William overall seemed a decent advisor though, you can follow his rationale on somethings)

If we make that alteration with Philipp the Fair (man his picture on wiki looks ugly) could we end up with the end result split I was looking for?

I'm just interested in the idea a big Spanish contingent trying to relieve the sieges of Vienna and fight the Turks in Hungary.
 
If we make that alteration with Philipp the Fair (man his picture on wiki looks ugly) could we end up with the end result split I was looking for?

I'm just interested in the idea a big Spanish contingent trying to relieve the sieges of Vienna and fight the Turks in Hungary.

LOL @ the picture, I think the sobriquet was probably attached when he was younger, also the portrait style. Here's an image of Philip and his sister Margaret (https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/...h-philip-the-handsome-and-margaret-of-austria). But a huge Spanish contingent to relive Vienna I think is just unlikely. The Spaniards will always see it overall as a waste of their resources, like why are we wasting energy & gold on something way over other. That being said I think Charles did send troops to assist Ferdinand. Spain might've/would've assisted either way for the sake of the catholic/christian cause, assisting an ally agx a threat to Spanish realms in Italy (Naples) but still a full-on investment for an extended truly extended period of time would be unlikely IMHO
 
I think the easiest way to get another partition of Charles V's domains would be for Philip II to fall down a stairwell in spring 1544. This would leave Charles without a male heir, and while he would likely remarry (maybe his son's widow) I would say there's good chance that he would not produce male offspring. This leave him with three nephews. I could see Charles marry his two daughters to the eldest nephews with Maximillian II inherite the Low Countries and Ferdinand getting Spain. Charles the third nephew would get Further Austria instead of Inner Austria.
 
For that I think we'd need Philipp the fair to live longer.

The only reason I say this is because I'm not sure how much sway Maximilian I had over Charles, the marriage treaty was organised in 1515 and I think by then Charles had been granted/had his majority recognised as a compromise with the local nobility with Maximilian (and some French input as well I believe), same thing had happened with Philipp the fair who's majority was recognised when I think he was 16, so Maximilian wouldn't have input in the affairs of the low countries. I guess it was easier to arrange for Ferdinand a minor (he was 12 I think) than the emancipated Charles who could reject it. Also according to wikipedia, Charles was under the sway of William of Croy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Croÿ), who manoeuvred this emancipation and influenced him away from his aunt, Margaret, who'd been appoint regent on Charles's behalf by Maximilian. William would go on to convince Charles to cancel his initial engagement to Isabella of Portugal for Mary Tudor among other things (which was later shuffled back again later, probably wasn't hard to convince Charles he's not married and so he sowed his wild oats, he had like 3 kids before he married Isabella; William overall seemed a decent advisor though, you can follow his rationale on somethings)

Philip the Handsome living longer or even better Mary the Rich of Burgundy would do wonders. As for the Habsburg-Jagiellon marriage treaty, whereas the Habsburg archduchess name was named, it only mentions of a male Habsburg. Moreover Mary Tudor the Elder (sister of Henry VIII) was more interesting for the entire Habsburg Empire, though by the point it would have waiting on Mary Tudor the younger (daughter of Henry VIII), Isabella of Portugal was the superior choice, if only due to the fact, that he did not have the luxury to wait that long, besides England screwed him over by marrying the more age appropriate Mary Tudor to an old king of France.

Anyway a surviving Philip the Handsome probably forces Ferdinand of Aragon to act, maybe he gets the backing the name OTL Ferdinand of Austria as Prince of Asturias, Girona and Viana. That would mean that Charles will inherit Austria-Burgundy and that he will be the Archduke to marry Anne of Bohemia & Hungary. It may also mean that Ferdinand might owe his brother future compensation, as in backing in the Imperial Election (good for their house) and even if the duchy of Milan would be conquered by mostly Spanish troops ITTL, even then Charles will want to keep it in his branch, and Ferdinand knows he already got more than he could hoped for with the Crowns of Castille & Aragon, so I doubt he will dispute his brother on an Imperial fief like the duchy of Milan (which technically Charles could decide to grant it to anyway).
 
Philip the Handsome living longer or even better Mary the Rich of Burgundy would do wonders. As for the Habsburg-Jagiellon marriage treaty, whereas the Habsburg archduchess name was named, it only mentions of a male Habsburg. Moreover Mary Tudor the Elder (sister of Henry VIII) was more interesting for the entire Habsburg Empire, though by the point it would have waiting on Mary Tudor the younger (daughter of Henry VIII), Isabella of Portugal was the superior choice, if only due to the fact, that he did not have the luxury to wait that long, besides England screwed him over by marrying the more age appropriate Mary Tudor to an old king of France.

Anyway a surviving Philip the Handsome probably forces Ferdinand of Aragon to act, maybe he gets the backing the name OTL Ferdinand of Austria as Prince of Asturias, Girona and Viana. That would mean that Charles will inherit Austria-Burgundy and that he will be the Archduke to marry Anne of Bohemia & Hungary. It may also mean that Ferdinand might owe his brother future compensation, as in backing in the Imperial Election (good for their house) and even if the duchy of Milan would be conquered by mostly Spanish troops ITTL, even then Charles will want to keep it in his branch, and Ferdinand knows he already got more than he could hoped for with the Crowns of Castille & Aragon, so I doubt he will dispute his brother on an Imperial fief like the duchy of Milan (which technically Charles could decide to grant it to anyway).

Agree, I still think it was easier to arrange for Ferdinand with him being a minor. But it also makes a lot more sense for Charles to marry from England to keep England in the anti-french camp. An English marriage would also work for the Iberians I think.
 
An English marriage would also work for the Iberians I think.

Maybe, maybe not. IIRC, it was the cortes that proposed that whomever succeeded Fernando marry Isabel of Portugal IIRC.

Out of curiosity, if Henry VII's youngest daughter, Katherine (b.1503), were to survive, would she be betrothed to Karl instead of older sister Mary? Or would they have to find some other husband for Katie?
 
Maybe, maybe not. IIRC, it was the cortes that proposed that whomever succeeded Fernando marry Isabel of Portugal IIRC.

Out of curiosity, if Henry VII's youngest daughter, Katherine (b.1503), were to survive, would she be betrothed to Karl instead of older sister Mary? Or would they have to find some other husband for Katie?

I think the latter, with Charles & Katherine.
 
Agree, I still think it was easier to arrange for Ferdinand with him being a minor. But it also makes a lot more sense for Charles to marry from England to keep England in the anti-french camp. An English marriage would also work for the Iberians I think.
Not entirely, the intention probably was indeed archduke-infante Ferdinand, but he wasn't explicitly mentioned. It meant Anne could still be an option for Charles too, but more importantly at the time when Maximilian conducted this treaty with Jagiellon rulers of Hungary-Bohemia & Poland-Lithuania, Ferdinand of Austria was still in the court of Ferdinand of Aragon.

Maybe, maybe not. IIRC, it was the cortes that proposed that whomever succeeded Fernando marry Isabel of Portugal IIRC.

Out of curiosity, if Henry VII's youngest daughter, Katherine (b.1503), were to survive, would she be betrothed to Karl instead of older sister Mary? Or would they have to find some other husband for Katie?
I think the latter, with Charles & Katherine.

AFAIK Charles didn't immediately opt for Isabella of Portugal, so IMHO that leads me to a conclusion, that if possible, an English was still on the table as far as Charles was concerned. In fact he even toyed with the idea of marrying Mary Tudor 'the younger' (the daughter of Henry VIII), but he came to the conclusion, that he could not wait that long and that Isabella was the best option left.
A surviving Katherine would mean just that, moreover it would be extremely good news for the house of Tudor too, they would have the option to appease the two great dynasties on the continent. Besides being related to both, also strengthens the relatively new house of Tudor, IIRC Henry VII was very pleased Arthur and later Henry married into the house of Trastamara.

Well Mary 'the elder' or Catherine Tudor, that depends, once the former is married to the king of France, I'm very certain Catherine will be offered as an alternative to Charles, once that happens, even when Catherine would have been betrothed to some else, probably a domestic match, since well the Holy Roman Emperor and king of Castille & Aragon is just too valuable to keep him on your side.
 
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