Could a surviving Serbian Empire stop the Turks?

[Vuru]

I'm thinking of writing a TL about the premise of Dušan not dying early, so Uroš can actually prepare to rule the state and gain valuable experience, as OTL that didn't occur as he was too young at first, and when he was of age Dušan died under mysterious circumstances. After that, Uroš would alienate the nobility and the people his father placed in positions of power, leading to them going on their own.

Now, that is easily solvable by having Dušan live longer, so Uroš can be a provincial ruler (like all heirs) to get experience of ruling correctly. However, at that time the Turk states are attacking Europe, could this replacement Byzantium stop them or would Serbia go down anyway?

 

[mrmandias]

I think it could. Balkan territory was an important source of strength for the Ottomans, and Balkan disunity was what allowed them to acquire Balkan territory. ATL, the Serbs are in a good position to stop that.

 

[Halagaz]

Depends, how long does Emperor Dušan live? But generally: yeah, it could.

In OTL the Ottomans conquered the Balkan region in a dozen small bites, a Serbian Empire that stays united would be too big to be picked off like that. If Louis of Hungary launches one of his petty crusades at the really wrong time, he could still turn it into a close call; but even in that worst case scenario the victory of the Ottomans wouldn't be assured.

Dušan's death of some weird unspecified disease is one of those really dumb and anticlimactic moments of history. I've thought about writing a Serbian Empire TL myself for some time, but was (am?) too lazy to get the idea off the ground.

 

[Red Orm]

You would need a string of good, strong rulers to accomplish this. Not impossible by any means, just unlikely. Dusan's empire wasn't very well put together geographically, and as soon as there is somebody not as mighty and impressive to rule, lords on the fringes will begin to break away politically and do their own thing. Some will ask for Hungarian help, others will enlist the Ottomans, as happened in OTL. After all, the Serbs were some of the Ottomans' most loyal vassals.

 

[Vuru]

You would need a string of good, strong rulers to accomplish this. Not impossible by any means, just unlikely. Dusan's empire wasn't very well put together geographically, and as soon as there is somebody not as mighty and impressive to rule, lords on the fringes will begin to break away politically and do their own thing. Some will ask for Hungarian help, others will enlist the Ottomans, as happened in OTL. After all, the Serbs were some of the Ottomans' most loyal vassals.

Yes, this happened, but they were relatively minor. The problem was when the major vassals started being unreliable, due to Uroš constantly rejecting advice from older, more wise people and taking the advice of younger people at the court, which always ended disastrously, so the vassals considered themselves to be a part of the state, but mostly did their own thing, and they started attacking the turks/others on their own, which led to idiotic casualties without a fault.

The worst case is Simeon Siniša

 

[Russian]

I'm thinking of writing a TL about the premise of Dušan not dying early, so Uroš can actually prepare to rule the state and gain valuable experience, as OTL that didn't occur as he was too young at first, and when he was of age Dušan died under mysterious circumstances. After that, Uroš would alienate the nobility and the people his father placed in positions of power, leading to them going on their own.

Now, that is easily solvable by having Dušan live longer, so Uroš can be a provincial ruler (like all heirs) to get experience of ruling correctly. However, at that time the Turk states are attacking Europe, could this replacement Byzantium stop them or would Serbia go down anyway?

I think that some Slavic polity replacing Byzantium and uniting the Balkans under the auspices of the 'Roman Empire' with the center in Constantinople was more probable than the Turkish conquest.
Some Slavic polities came close, but never did it. Bad luck, I guess.

 

[Gloss]

If Dusan lives doesn´t he conquer Constantinople?

 

[Deleted member 67076]

If Dusan takes Constantinople and gets crowned Roman Emperor, than the answer is yes. The Byzantines would give his state the administrators he needs to keep the nobility in line, and Thrace + Constantinople would be a nice addition of wealth to his empire, allowing him to keep his largely mercenary army core paid and loyal.

With such a strong core, a fracturing Bulgaria, pitifully weak Crusader states, and a Hungary undergoing the pains of centralization, he's secure on all fronts and I can't see Orhan having enough strength to land any troops in Europe. In fact, its likely here the Ottomans get eaten by the Germaniyanids or Candarids, both states who were larger and better organized at this point.

 

[Damian0358]

There isn't really anything I can add that others haven't already said - a longer living Dušan would not only keep the Serbian Empire united, but also beat back the Turks. With knowledge of his wishes of conducting a crusade of sorts against the Turks, with or without Papal support, if he had secured the Roman Imperial crown, he would more than likely have at least tried to take Phrygia.

His full title was at one point "car Vsem Srbljem i Grkom, i Stranama blgarskim i vsemu Disou, Pomorju, Frugiže i Arvanitom," which I lovingly translated for my infobox as "Emperor and Autocrat of the Serbs and Greeks, the Bulgarians, the Maritime Lands, the Western Frontier, Phrygia and the Albanians," including an element from the Greek version of the title, autocrat, and translating 'vsemu Disou,' which more than likely referred to Croatia, Bosnia and parts of Hungary, as the Western Frontier for stylistic reasons.

However, a Byzantine Dušan might lead to some issues - we could see the introduction of more Greek elements into the Empire, something that the Serbian population might not appreciate, and then we have the whole issue over him raising the Serbian Archbishopric to the rank of Patriarchate to allow himself to be crowned Emperor without permission from the Ecumenical Patriarchate, or when he used a loophole in order to let his wife into Mount Athos, or when he discussed with the Pope about formally accepting Papal primacy (which fell under after he realized that the Pope couldn't stop the Hungarian attacks from the north, which was the second reason, besides a crusade against the Turks, for even thinking about accepting Papal primacy).

 

[Faeelin]

If Dusan takes Constantinople and gets crowned Roman Emperor, than the answer is yes. The Byzantines would give his state the administrators he needs to keep the nobility in line, and Thrace + Constantinople would be a nice addition of wealth to his empire, allowing him to keep his largely mercenary army core paid and loyal.

I love the idea of there being administrators like a harvestable resource. Where is he getting these administrators from? The Byzantine state after the 4th Crusade isn't really a centralized administrative state....

 

[GauchoBadger]

However, a Byzantine Dušan might lead to some issues - we could see the introduction of more Greek elements into the Empire, something that the Serbian population might not appreciate, and then we have the whole issue over him raising the Serbian Archbishopric to the rank of Patriarchate to allow himself to be crowned Emperor without permission from the Ecumenical Patriarchate, or when he used a loophole in order to let his wife into Mount Athos.

I tend to agree. As some people say, "he who takes constantinople becomes a constantinopolitan". I think it's more likely for the serbs to prop up the rump byzantine empire as a puppet and a buffer.

 

[Damian0358]

I tend to agree. As some people say, "he who takes constantinople becomes a constantinopolitan". I think it's more likely for the serbs to prop up the rump byzantine empire as a puppet and a buffer.

Possibly. Most of Thrace, including Constantinople, parts of Bithynia, Mysia and possibly Troas (basically the Sea of Marmara, the Bosporus and almost the entire Dardanelles) might form such a rump state. Whether or not he'd call himself the Roman Emperor all depends on his goals, and honestly, he might just adopt the title nominally for legitimacy purposes. Those of the rump Greek state would certainly call him that, but in the end, he would still be the Emperor and Autocrat of the Serbs and Greeks and the rest, not the Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans.

However, I think the introduction of at least a few Greek elements is inevitable, seeing as he lived in Constantinople from somewhere after 1314 to 1320, learning Greek, and gaining an understanding of Byzantine life and culture. Elements that might be beneficial to the development of the Serbs could see their appearance. One thing is for certain however - we might see the usage of Nemanyid rise in Western literature over the native Nemanjić.

A TL about Dušan I'd want to see if one where he not only manages to take control of everything he claimed in the title I mentioned above, but one where he manages to keep to his Serbian roots despite pressure from the various Greek parties that would fall under his control in such a scenario, such as the Ecumenical Patriarchate and some parts of the former Byzantine nobility.

 

[Vuru]

There was some sort of measure, since the idea of a nation was already known in the region far before in the west, the empire was split in 2, the serb part and he greek part, with the border somewhere in macedonia just south of Skoplje, to ease administration since neither Serbs wanted to hellenize or the greeks to serbianize

 

[Deleted member 67076]

I love the idea of there being administrators like a harvestable resource. Where is he getting these administrators from? The Byzantine state after the 4th Crusade isn't really a centralized administrative state....

I love how whenever you come a thread you just question a post and never put forth an argument of your own.

The Byzantine administration was there, just slimmed due to a lack of money and a decline in literacy. Its how taxes were able to be raised by the state and how the cities were able to administer themselves. This is not a feudal state without a central government no more than postcolonial Latin America was. Dusan didnt change much of Macedonia when he entered the region. Why wouldn't he co opt the middle classes and existing structure?

 

[Faeelin]

The Byzantine administration was there, just slimmed due to a lack of money and a decline in literacy. Its how taxes were able to be raised by the state and how the cities were able to administer themselves. This is not a feudal state without a central government no more than postcolonial Latin America was. Dusan didnt change much of Macedonia when he entered the region. Why wouldn't he co opt the middle classes and existing structure?

I am a bit suspicious, I suppose, because if there is a valuable centralized administration that can be used to build a state, why didn't the Byzantines use it?

 

[Deleted member 67076]

I am a bit suspicious, I suppose, because if there is a valuable centralized administration that can be used to build a state, why didn't the Byzantines use it?

Corruption, lack of funds, staffing of offices by aristocrats whose loyalty to the state was questionable, eroding tax base, desertion, etc.

Of course, your statement implies the Byzantine state didn't have a centralized state, it did by the standards of the day. It was just slowly decaying and losing function due to a myriad of factors.

 

[Halagaz]

There was some sort of measure, since the idea of a nation was already known in the region far before in the west, the empire was split in 2, the serb part and he greek part, with the border somewhere in macedonia just south of Skoplje, to ease administration since neither Serbs wanted to hellenize or the greeks to serbianize

There was actually no split, this was just a symbolic/fake step to prevent Ragusan merchants from cheating their way out of old deals. There was only one law and one administration, inspired by the Byzantine system. The personnel was a bit different - Serbian parts administered mostly by Serbs, Greek parts administered by a mix of Greeks, Serbs and third wheels; but they were all part of a single system.

 

[B-29_Bomber]

I am a bit suspicious, I suppose, because if there is a valuable centralized administration that can be used to build a state, why didn't the Byzantines use it?

Just because you have a centralized state doesn't mean it's a well functioning one. The Roman state was in desperate need of reform.