Could a Polynesian state be on par with a european won

Chimera0205

Banned
Was there ever any way that a Polynesian state could have been technologically on par with a european one. Maybe some kind of large united polynesian empire? If such a state existed what would its interactions with europe look like?
 
Was there ever any way that a Polynesian state could have been technologically on par with a european one. Maybe some kind of large united polynesian empire? If such a state existed what would its interactions with europe look like?
In my opinion, not until the modern era and only if all Polynesian states united and there was a massive shift in attitudes toward education etc. There's a lot of reasons for why Polynesia never grew into more advanced societal structures like writing and building with stone among other things. Overpopulation in some islands would sometimes lead to infanticide, navigation while advanced was still perilous which is likely why they were highly specialized and used mostly for trade. Any "empire" Oceania ever had was based on a tributary system which prevented long term cultural exchange, and the lifestyles of islanders while sedentary enough, often never had the things necessary for passing down information except orally, there's no paper made from palm leaves for example. Maybe something like quipu knots could have been invented, but spreading such information into the plethora of islands would have been a task to daunting to undertake in my opinion. So maybe if all Polynesian islanders developed some kind of nationalism, got everyone to recognize a huge amount of ocean as territory, and could develop and spread metalworks. No easy task i'm afraid.
 
Bring the sweet potato and the white potato to New Zealand and you'll have a population so large that they could arguably succeed where Hawaii failed as a united kingdom post contact.
 
Bring the sweet potato and the white potato to New Zealand and you'll have a population so large that they could arguably succeed where Hawaii failed as a united kingdom post contact.
They did have sweet potatoes though, just tropical cultivars that didn't do too horribly well in New Zealand's climate. White potatoes are a good suggestion. I don't think that's going to do it by itself though, they also need to politically unite like Hawaii did so that they have some chance of interacting with westerners on their own terms. Otherwise it's going to be divide et impera all over the place, just like in India or places of that sort.

I'm curious as to how you think Hawaii "failed" post contact? Did you have in mind merely the coup and the general trend of American(-descended inhabitant) dominance of the military and political institutions, or something else?
 
Would an industrialized Madagascar count? They could possibly be on the level of the Iberian states at the turn of the century if they play their cards right.
 
Not at all, just like Madagascar. They just happen to be in the same language group, but so are Hindi and Norwegian.
Ok. It was just a suggestion.

Hmm... I know that Kalakaua of Hawaii (the last king and second to last monarch) had some ideas for pan-Polynesianism. Maybe the Britain or France could back him up to counter American influence in the region?
 
They did have sweet potatoes though, just tropical cultivars that didn't do too horribly well in New Zealand's climate. White potatoes are a good suggestion. I don't think that's going to do it by itself though, they also need to politically unite like Hawaii did so that they have some chance of interacting with westerners on their own terms. Otherwise it's going to be divide et impera all over the place, just like in India or places of that sort.

I'm curious as to how you think Hawaii "failed" post contact? Did you have in mind merely the coup and the general trend of American(-descended inhabitant) dominance of the military and political institutions, or something else?
White potato would have created a population boom like no other in the semi-subtropic to temperate New Zealand anglis ould Ave faced. Hawaii failed for a number of reasons, however numbers and post diseases population has a clear impact on colonisation processes.

Would an industrialized Madagascar count? They could possibly be on the level of the Iberian states at the turn of the century if they play their cards right.
I consider it
Madagascar is about as Polynesian as Malaysia is.
Uh no, there is a clear Malagasy motif and Polynesian derived Malagasy motif that undeniably shows a Polynesian influence in the islands influence. My own father has the Polynesian derived "Malagasy motif".
 
Uh no, there is a clear Malagasy motif and Polynesian derived Malagasy motif that undeniably shows a Polynesian influence in the islands influence. My own father has the Polynesian derived "Malagasy motif".
No. There is absolutely no direct Polynesian influence in Malagasy culture, simply cultural similarities that come from their shared Austronesian/Southeast Asian heritage.
 
Their islands are too small, except for New Zealand where theoretically the Maori with better agriculture could have a more complex society and unite and go from there. Maybe with colonies in Australia.
 
No. There is absolutely no direct Polynesian influence in Malagasy culture, simply cultural similarities that come from their shared Austronesian/Southeast Asian heritage.

Yes we do and it's proven genetically. There is no way it's indirect, we literally have Lapita maternal ancestry in a way most other Southeast Asians do not.

It is also common in Micronesia and parts of Near Oceania,2, 3, 5, 12, 13, 14,15, 16, 17, 18 where it is not necessarily restricted to Austronesian speaking populations, but also occurs in some rare Papuan speaking groups.2, 18, 19 The motif is much less frequent in Island Southeast Asia, although it has been found sporadically in both central and eastern Indonesia.4, 6, 7, 11, 20, 21 In Madagascar – the western edge of the Austronesian expansion – the Polynesian motif reaches a frequency of around 20%,8, 9, 20, 22thus leading to proposals that the island was settled by an Indonesian population, which later colonized the Pacific Islands,8, 22 or even more speculatively, by direct migration from Polynesia itself

Again *most Southeast asians except those in contact with ancient Lapita sailors lack this motif*.

There is also the old stories of the Vazimba being a horticultural society that existed on the island before the Proto-Malagasy.

Professor Charles E.M. Pearce who wrote Ocean Migrations and specialized in Lapita derived populations gave an compelling argument for gender population displacement of Polynesian people in Madagascar.

I'm somewhat more partial to the idea of Srivijaya sailors killing a group of Lapita/Polynesian men and enslaving the women, taking them to the old Banjar capital and from there Madagascar.
 
I'm somewhat more partial to the idea of Srivijaya sailors killing a group of Lapita/Polynesian men and enslaving the women, taking them to the old Banjar capital and from there Madagascar.
Isn't that too late?
Srivijaya was founded by a proto-Minang warlord (Jayanasa) descending the mountains and invading Palembang and surrounding environs in 680CE.
Now, a Polynesian-like orang laut tribe/fleet getting kicked out by proto-Malays/pre-Srivijayans and fleeing west is an interesting theory, hmm...
 
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