Could 'a more Germanic' Charlemagne lead to a true pan-Germanic Empire?

Well that's not completely true. As I explained in my Visigothic timeline, the first 'suggestion' for help came at the beginning of the 7th century when the Popes were worried about the effect of the harsh Byzantine - Sassanid war. And I think that since then the Popes stopped to rely on Byzantine protection, which is more than 150 years before the actual Carolingian assistance.

However, Visigoths were unable to assist the Papacy in Italy and the Franks were involved in a Neustrian vs Austrasian internal war, so the first demands of the Popes were neglected, and this lasted for 150 years more.

If Charlemagne would just have prioritized his internal issues over the Roman pleas for assistance, the intervention in Italy would have just not happened and maybe the Lombards would have taken Rome, but as long as they were mostly Catholic by the time I can't see the tragedy here.

The Popes were pretty much appointed by/dominated by Constantinople from 534 to 752 (the era of Greek Popes)... The big split began when the Romans confiscated papal patrimonies in southern Italy in the 730s. This would lead to the fall of the Exarchate of Ravenna (the Imperial stronghold), and lead to the Lombard occupation of that territory in 751. This was due to disagreements between the Papacy and Rome, and would eventually lead to the invitation to Charles some 50 years later. So Rome was inextricably connected to the Papacy until the fall of the Exarchate...

Do you have a source for your Visigothic claim? Thats the first I have heard of it. It obviously didnt last or pan out, as the popes asked for Imperial approval till 741.

And with regards to Charles focusing on internal issues, his internal issues would be taking the rest of the Empire from Carloman. Without the resources held in his brother's Kingdom, Charles will be hard pressed to do much... But that would lead to more Romanization, something you are trying to avoid. The brothers got really close to war before Carloman died, which could have gone either way (as we have little idea what Carloman was capable of).
 
I have to agree that a purely Germanic Empire under Charlemagne is to all intents and purposes impossible.
However you might be able to get a portion of a later broken empire later claim the title.
-- have the empire remain under a single ruler for another couple generations
-- split into 4 Tetrarchs under one who is elected Emperor - West based around Aquitaine, South around Italy, East around Bavaria, North around Neustria-Austrasia
The East will get battered by the Magyars and may splinter
The North despite some Romance speakers will develop Germanic speaking power centre(s)
Have the South and West dominate the Imperialship and eventually North will pull further away
Factor in a northern religious split and the Northern Tetrarchy could champion a Holy Germanic Empire under their leadership under the guise of a Charlemagne-mould
 
I have to agree that a purely Germanic Empire under Charlemagne is to all intents and purposes impossible.
However you might be able to get a portion of a later broken empire later claim the title.
-- have the empire remain under a single ruler for another couple generations
-- split into 4 Tetrarchs under one who is elected Emperor - West based around Aquitaine, South around Italy, East around Bavaria, North around Neustria-Austrasia
The East will get battered by the Magyars and may splinter
The North despite some Romance speakers will develop Germanic speaking power centre(s)
Have the South and West dominate the Imperialship and eventually North will pull further away
Factor in a northern religious split and the Northern Tetrarchy could champion a Holy Germanic Empire under their leadership under the guise of a Charlemagne-mould

Yes, the idea is to split the North from the most Latinized areas.
 
Well so, more or less, I have the idea for my Great Saxon Empire TL (rather more interesting than another Francia vs Francia TL).

- For whatever reason (open to every reader imagination) Charlemagne had postponed the campaign against the Lombards and he dies before this is launched.

- The Frankish realm is split between Pepin and Louis: Louis inherits Aquitaine, Burgundy, Provence and the Spanish March while Pepin inherits the rest.

- Louis launches the campaign against the Lombards with the assistance of Pepin. The Lombards are defeated and the Papal State is put under Louis' protection. However, the partition of Northern Italy between the two realms cause the distancement between Louis and Pepin.

- Pepin's reign gets into internal fights and his son Bernard is not popular as heir. After the Pepin's death, some anarchy is following.

- A powerful Saxon army revolts against the anarchy in the North and takes over the Kingdom. A new Saxon dinasty is installed in a new capital and the rest is gradually subdued, while the new King grants the Saxon generals different duchies across the Kingdom where its rule is set to be enforced.

- South Francia does not accept the change of regime but is not strong enough to fight the Saxons. The war and rivalry between Saxons and South Francia is translated into an increasing hostility of the Northern Church against Rome, which could later lead to the instauration of a separate and independent Germanic hierarchy.
 
And finally another map depicting the final scenario with three main powers in Europe: the restored WRE based on South Francia, a relived ERE and the Great Saxon Empire built over North Francia:

Great_Saxony.PNG
 
And this could be a later development ca. 1500 if the expansion and colonization would be successful:

SaxWorld.png
 
Someone is getting carried away...;)
i like the Saxon approach better than the Frankish. But why would a Saxon reconqueror and unifier care about such distant places like Carinthia and beyond, and not include his brethren on the British Island first?
coming to think of it, would it not make sense for the whole thing to start there?
 
Someone is getting carried away...;)
i like the Saxon approach better than the Frankish. But why would a Saxon reconqueror and unifier care about such distant places like Carinthia and beyond, and not include his brethren on the British Island first?
coming to think of it, would it not make sense for the whole thing to start there?

Yes, I thought the same :D

However, for a successful conquer of England it is necessary, first of all, to establish a solid alliance with (part of) the Norsemen, and this would surely require several decades.

Carinthia was indeed a far land for the Saxons, but it was subdued by the Franks and the Saxons would just replace these rulers. Moreover, I have envisioned some sort of Saxon vice-king to be sent to the valley of the Danube for colonization (something that would somehow happen IOTL at a later stage when Saxon colons went to Transylvania and so)
 
And if, quite the other way round, One of the Saxon Kings from the island Starts the conquest of the Francian anarchic mess?
 
And if, quite the other way round, One of the Saxon Kings from the island Starts the conquest of the Francian anarchic mess?

It would be original, but quite unrealistic.

The Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were too busy with their fights between them and their fights against the Norsemen for making that effort of conquering lands in the continent.
 
And finally another map depicting the final scenario with three main powers in Europe: the restored WRE based on South Francia, a relived ERE and the Great Saxon Empire built over North Francia:

That is an ambitious realm, I have to say.

"Holland" is very improbable for this PoD. "Westfriesland" or "Utrecht" would fit better.
"Neuster" would be better "Neustrien", since you use modern forms anyway.
Engern contains Hessen, which should be together with your
"Franken", which is too narrow with this PoD. Maybe "Neufranken", as it is among the areas most recently settled by Franks.
"Niederoster" and "Oberoster" should be "Niederaustrasien" and "Oberaustrasien".
"Schwaben" and "Alamannien" should be united as "Allemannien".
 
That is an ambitious realm, I have to say.

Yes, it is :D

"Holland" is very improbable for this PoD. "Westfriesland" or "Utrecht" would fit better.

Yes, I know that at first it was called Westfriesland, but later it is called Holland. Do you know when the toponym Holland started to be used?

"Neuster" would be better "Neustrien", since you use modern forms anyway.

I think 'Neustrien' was a Latinized form, and the proper Germanic toponym was similar to 'Neuster' (as in Öster(reich) for Latinized Austria). The toponym 'Neustria' got lost at 10th century or so, and I think this is the reason that only the Latinized form survived.

Engern contains Hessen, which should be together with your
"Franken", which is too narrow with this PoD. Maybe "Neufranken", as it is among the areas most recently settled by Franks.

Yes, I forgot to split Hessen.

""Niederoster" and "Oberoster" should be "Niederaustrasien" and "Oberaustrasien".

Same case of 'Neustrien'. The proper Germanic toponym for Austrasia would have been 'Oster(s)' or similar.

""Schwaben" and "Alamannien" should be united as "Allemannien".

The original Alamannien comprised Swabia and Switzerland, but I think that around the 10th century they were split and only the southern part (Switzerland) conserved the toponym of Alamannien until the formation of the Swiss Confederation.
 
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