Could a modern "traditional" society survives on the aesthetic sense?

[Gukpard]

This is one of the most complicated things I ever tried to ask here, as it covers both ideology and sociology, so if even I cannot quite explain what I'm asking, I'm sorry if you have trouble understanding.

Imagine the stereotype of the 1940s society, suits, art deco, smoking, chilvary (on the sense of treating people fine), etc. We know that this is a stereotype, that society of the 40s had major problems on many senses from country to country, Japan had the brutal levels of militarism, the US had the racial segretation and the rampant racism, the UK had the labour problems, Germany doesn't even need explanation, etc. That society pretty much died out on the 60s and was replaced as the counter culture went on, the "standartization" of things ended, the suit became a formal wear, the art deco style stopped being the "normal" and became the exception for architects or engineers who liked the style, and in general, a individualistic sense of "I do what I want" took over replacing the tradition, and I will not say that this is bad or good, I gonna just present this question: Could the 1940s society survive but modernizes? I believe that this can be done to some point, as the suit is still "normal" in Japan, along with the school uniforms of that time, but I mean MOSTLY of the things, like the US ends the racial segregation, keeps moving towards their modern state, mankind reaches the moon, the wall fall, there still is the counter culture and the sexual revolution (probably not as the same as OTL), but the 1940s "feeling" keeps alive, the noir films still dominate the market, it doesn't needs to be "pure" noir, but many different shades of noir, like the movie "Rambo first blood" also showing a bit of the politics and how the city where Rambo is and how the life in Vietnam worked, with bribery and other mini plots while the massive action goes on. The suit remains common, even tough these turn into the modern slim suits we known today (and not the cotton double breasted ones of the 40s), the modern songs like rap, rock, pop still shows up but they still have a bit of the old "swing" connected to it (one example of a song like that), modern cars looks like the cars from the 40s with modern gadgets like electric windows and air conditioners, etc.

What do you think? And no, there is no specific country for this to happen, neither a certain political ideology, it could be sweden level progressive or russian like conservative for all I care.

 

[HunterX]

Societal trends, aesthetics, and fashion are not going to remain static in a modern world. I don't think there is any way to achieve this without supernatural intervention.

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

Avoid the world wars and you'd get slower/different changes, plus less mid-century era brutalist/other simialr aesthetics without either the totalitarian regimes or the americanization of the planet

 

[Lafayette_]

Each generation is just inherently different than the last. You can’t recreate or somehow maintain the cultural and social structures from the 40s to present day — people change, demographics change, technology changes. Social norms are bound to change over time, too.

 

[Mark E.]

Well, I think the Chrysler PT Cruiser and its copycats are distinct retro-throwbacks to the late forties. In the seventies, the formal suits became sport coats, with much less rigor, but there were still collared shirts with ties. That trend contracted back in the eighties.

The big issue here is dress codes. Go back to the fifties, and people dressed up just to go to stores. If you went to the grocery store or Woolworth's, you dressed at the lowest "public" level. If you went to JC Penney's, you dressed up more. If you went to the most fashionable store in town, you REALLY dressed up. And if you went Christmas shopping, you spent at least an hour getting dressed. As society changed after the Summer of Love (1967), those dress codes quickly went away.

 

[Gukpard]

Societal trends, aesthetics, and fashion are not going to remain static in a modern world. I don't think there is any way to achieve this without supernatural intervention.

Each generation is just inherently different than the last. You can’t recreate or somehow maintain the cultural and social structures from the 40s to present day — people change, demographics change, technology changes. Social norms are bound to change over time, too.

Yeah, but there is the phenomenon of cultural inertia, like it happens in Japan as this thread focuses on. The idea is to change things, but to leave the main atmosphere close to the one of the 40s. The song I passed for example, it is from a new gender called "Neo swing" that combines modern day techno with 1940s inspired swing.

 

[Histor32]

This is one of the most complicated things I ever tried to ask here, as it covers both ideology and sociology, so if even I cannot quite explain what I'm asking, I'm sorry if you have trouble understanding.

Imagine the stereotype of the 1940s society, suits, art deco, smoking, chilvary (on the sense of treating people fine), etc. We know that this is a stereotype, that society of the 40s had major problems on many senses from country to country, Japan had the brutal levels of militarism, the US had the racial segretation and the rampant racism, the UK had the labour problems, Germany doesn't even need explanation, etc. That society pretty much died out on the 60s and was replaced as the counter culture went on, the "standartization" of things ended, the suit became a formal wear, the art deco style stopped being the "normal" and became the exception for architects or engineers who liked the style, and in general, a individualistic sense of "I do what I want" took over replacing the tradition, and I will not say that this is bad or good, I gonna just present this question: Could the 1940s society survive but modernizes? I believe that this can be done to some point, as the suit is still "normal" in Japan, along with the school uniforms of that time, but I mean MOSTLY of the things, like the US ends the racial segregation, keeps moving towards their modern state, mankind reaches the moon, the wall fall, there still is the counter culture and the sexual revolution (probably not as the same as OTL), but the 1940s "feeling" keeps alive, the noir films still dominate the market, it doesn't needs to be "pure" noir, but many different shades of noir, like the movie "Rambo first blood" also showing a bit of the politics and how the city where Rambo is and how the life in Vietnam worked, with bribery and other mini plots while the massive action goes on. The suit remains common, even tough these turn into the modern slim suits we known today (and not the cotton double breasted ones of the 40s), the modern songs like rap, rock, pop still shows up but they still have a bit of the old "swing" connected to it (one example of a song like that), modern cars looks like the cars from the 40s with modern gadgets like electric windows and air conditioners, etc.

What do you think? And no, there is no specific country for this to happen, neither a certain political ideology, it could be sweden level progressive or russian like conservative for all I care.

Some. Conservative countries are still like that to some degree, however the adapt to the surroundings .

To keep things isolated static . You need to really halt alot of progress. Designs change. People like to one up the next.

You could keep a more formal dress code, that's not to hard .
But the rest . Hmm

 

[Mark E.]

The song I passed for example, it is from a new gender called "Neo swing" that combines modern day techno with 1940s inspired swing.

The the Beatles and Rolling Stones, in digital high fidelity with a better S/N ratio than the original vinyl records, are parts of the sixties preserved forever for future generation. By contrast, modern full fidelity versions of Glenn Miller, did not capture the atmosphere of the forties to the WW2 veterans because high fidelity was not available back then. When they danced the Jitterbug to the big bands, the experience ended when the concert ended. Home record players were a very long way from the concert experience. Not until tape recording revolutionized the recording industry in the fifties did songs take on the "original artist, original version" identity. Only in recent years has material from the late forties been re-mastered to take out the background noise, but with limited application.

In the disco seventies, there was a brief attempt to revive some big band music, as the I Love Lucy Theme (Disco Lucy) made the Top 40. But the trend did not continue. If future generations revive the big band sounds, it will be new music, not recovered old music. The early mid fifties remains a sharp cutoff in the look-back in recorded music, for reasons more technical than culture/content.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Yeah, but there is the phenomenon of cultural inertia, like it happens in Japan as this thread focuses on. The idea is to change things, but to leave the main atmosphere close to the one of the 40s. The song I passed for example, it is from a new gender called "Neo swing" that combines modern day techno with 1940s inspired swing.

One factor that makes this hard in the US is that, due to different population dynamics and internal politics, American mainstrwam culture in the 40's had very little overt Hispanic, Asian, and African American influences. If the broad trends you want to keep include the immigration policies that ratchet up the presence of non-European decended populations and the efforts to integrate them into society, the influx of new ideas and fashions will seep in. You'd have to change the rate of inflow and tighten assimilation pressure to the point the cultural infusions get diluted and dismissed too fast to get traction.

 

[Gukpard]

To keep things isolated static . You need to really halt alot of progress. Designs change. People like to one up the next.

You could keep a more formal dress code, that's not to hard .
But the rest . Hmm

Not static, but moving towards the future with a bias. Imagine fallout where the world reached the future, with the difference being that fallout is based on the late 50s and we are talking about the 40s.

One factor that makes this hard in the US is that, due to different population dynamics and internal politics, American mainstrwam culture in the 40's had very little overt Hispanic, Asian, and African American influences. If the broad trends you want to keep include the immigration policies that ratchet up the presence of non-European decended populations and the efforts to integrate them into society, the influx of new ideas and fashions will seep in. You'd have to change the rate of inflow and tighten assimilation pressure to the point the cultural infusions get diluted and dismissed too fast to get traction.

I mean, there are latim and hispanic songs of the time that had success in the USA:

But yeah, minoritary. This could be changed with time. There is no need to keep things static, just to begin foward while keeping this basic essence.

 

[Mark E.]

One factor that makes this hard in the US is that, due to different population dynamics and internal politics, American mainstrwam culture in the 40's had very little overt Hispanic, Asian, and African American influences. If the broad trends you want to keep include the immigration policies that ratchet up the presence of non-European decended populations and the efforts to integrate them into society, the influx of new ideas and fashions will seep in. You'd have to change the rate of inflow and tighten assimilation pressure to the point the cultural infusions get diluted and dismissed too fast to get traction.

In many ways, swing and big band music were descendants of jazz, blues and other African-American influenced genres. And what about the Latin influence of the Andrew Sister’s “Rum and Coca Cola?” Calypso was in there as well. In the late forties, a genre of “bee-bop” combined jazz and big band styles and was considered part of rhythm and blues. It has been said that the only place racial equality existed in America in 1958 was the juke box (or record store).

 

[Tehshudge]

The Short Answer: No

The Long Answer: Maintaining a semi-static culture and aesethetic requires a culture affected by as few stimuli as possible. If you're talking about the 1940's, you're talking about an era where international trade, travel and communication had become normal, making it virtually impossible to imagine a generation that doesn't have a considerable amount of internal and external stimuli augmenting their culture. To the extent that it was ever even possible for there to be a time period where culture and aesthetic stayed on their current course uninterrupted, even that possibility was annihilated by the telegram.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

In many ways, swing and big band music were descendants of jazz, blues and other African-American influenced genres. And what about the Latin influence of the Andrew Sister’s “Rum and Coca Cola?” Calypso was in there as well. In the late forties, a genre of “bee-bop” combined jazz and big band styles and was considered part of rhythm and blues. It has been said that the only place racial equality existed in America in 1958 was the juke box (or record store).

Fair point, hence why I included the qualifier "overt" in my statement to take into account the fact the influence existed to some extent (though not nearly as much as in our day) but was run through a heavy cultural filter to make it suitable for mass appeal. That just can't hold up if you have large populations of distinct, culturally autinimous ethnic groups in the nation who have the power to bypass the weakened filter.

 

[Mark E.]

Each generation is just inherently different than the last. You can’t recreate or somehow maintain the cultural and social structures from the 40s to present day — people change, demographics change, technology changes. Social norms are bound to change over time, too.

Yes, but they change in spurts and certain elements settle down to new norms.

In 1950, the order of the forties was still in place. Television did not blanket the country. Long distance travel was accomplished by rail, with sleeper cars, dining cars, etc. In a very short time, that order changed. Jet planes, television, modern audio recording came in the fifties; then in the sixties, civil rights, Interstate highways, birth control; and a collapse of dress codes, passenger rail travel, conscription, etc. Since the late seventies, we travel in very much the same manner. Cars for short distances, jet planes for long ones. We stay in hotel rooms. Our offices, clinics, supermarkets, offices have changed largely in the area of electronics. Mail order has become on-line shopping. Pay phones are gone, smart phones are standard. But still, there are some elements of order have remained static in the last 40 years, after undergoing a radical change in the sixties.

 

[Mark E.]

Fair point, hence why I included the qualifier "overt" in my statement to take into account the fact the influence existed to some extent (though not nearly as much as in our day) but was run through a heavy cultural filter to make it suitable for mass appeal. That just can't hold up if you have large populations of distinct, culturally autinimous ethnic groups in the nation who have the power to bypass the weakened filter.

Actually, sensational broadcaster Todd Storz is credited with having torn down that filter in the mid-fifties. He started in Omaha and in 1953 did a stint in New Orleans where he saw clubs where the customers were segregated as white-only, the performers were expected to be black. His break came in 1954 when he bought a radio station in Kansas City, began surveying local record stores for sales, and aired a weekly Top 40 countdown. The point of the countdown was to mix all songs, regardless of genre, into one countdown*. The idea caught on and spread nationwide. By 1958, the quality of the new vinyl records was so far superior to the old 78's that radio stations orphaned away any material before 1953, except for Christmas songs. This all happened when westerns, comedies, serials, variety shows, etc. were abandoning radio for TV, creating an immense market for music radio.

At the same time, Alan Freed moved from Cleveland to New York to push rock and roll radio. In Dallas, Gordon McClendon would build his own radio empire on the same model.

What you would get in the sixties was a very divided radio market. You had a Top 40 that attracted a younger market. You had more stations on the MOR (middle of the road) format that stressed an old form of "adult contemporary" for an audience that wanted nothing to do with the Beatles or Rolling Stones. It featured cover versions of popular songs by the Ray Conniff singers, Lawrence Welk singers, etc.

*He used Billboard and Cash Box magazines to "seed" his list of up-and-coming "Pick-Hits" and thus create a cycle of airplay-record sales.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Actually, sensational broadcaster Todd Storz is credited with having torn down that filter in the mid-fifties. He started in Omaha and in 1953 did a stint in New Orleans where he saw clubs where the customers were segregated as white-only, the performers were expected to be black. His break came in 1954 when he bought a radio station in Kansas City, began surveying local record stores for sales, and aired a weekly Top 40 countdown. The point of the countdown was to mix all songs, regardless of genre, into one countdown*. The idea caught on and spread nationwide. By 1958, the quality of the new vinyl records was so far superior to the old 78's that radio stations orphaned away any material before 1953, except for Christmas songs. This all happened when westerns, comedies, serials, variety shows, etc. were abandoning radio for TV, creating an immense market for music radio.

At the same time, Alan Freed moved from Cleveland to New York to push rock and roll radio. In Dallas, Gordon McClendon would build his own radio empire on the same model.

What you would get in the sixties was a very divided radio market. You had a Top 40 that attracted a younger market. You had more stations on the MOR (middle of the road) format that stressed an old form of "adult contemporary" for an audience that wanted nothing to do with the Beatles or Rolling Stones. It featured cover versions of popular songs by the Ray Conniff singers, Lawrence Welk singers, etc.

*He used Billboard and Cash Box magazines to "seed" his list of up-and-coming "Pick-Hits" and thus create a cycle of airplay-record sales.

Hm... I'll admit I'm not too familer with that particular phenomena. Though the late-50's is getting past the base culture of the 40's that the OP is trying to maintain enough that there's not alot of hope of still being able to "pump the breaks" hard enough to stay in the limited 40's space, especially given the rise of television (as you pointed out) is creating a major cultural shift as to how "mainstream" content is dispersed. Still, thank you for enlightening me to this particular movement in the popular music scene.

 

[Mark E.]

Here is a scenario that might prolong the civility and dress from the forties.

The year is 1957. Television and radio are highly regulated, the words “hell” and “damn” are even prohibited. Rock and roll is out of the bag. Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr. have made the news. Sputnik has not been launched. People still dress up to shop and travel.

A Dropshot war breaks out between the US and USSR. The US makes quick strikes, disabling Soviet communication. The war is over in two months, so it does not earn the title World War III. The USSR collapses, but there were nukes. One reached the US as a shot-down bomber explodes in a sparsely populated part of Delaware. The RAF shot bombers down before any could hit Britain. Some US air bases were hit in Germany but western Europe was not disabled. In other words, recovery begins before a significant number of troops can finish boot camp.

Buddy Holly graduates from high school in Lubbock. The to-be Quarrymen are studying music in Liverpool. There is no space race. NATO has no strategic enemies. Mao has no nukes. Two Vietnams remain in stalemate like Korea. You have butterflied away the space race and the Vietnam war. The Baby Boom still goes on, as the United States is more secure than ever. It is safe to say there will be no counter-culture protests in the sixties as we know them, but civil rights, interracial marriage and birth control will still be major issues. Young people don’t protest the draft; in fact, there are so many enlistees that it becomes little more than symbolic.

Can such a scenario preserve much of the civility and formality of earlier times?

 

[Gukpard]

Here is a scenario that might prolong the civility and dress from the forties.

The year is 1957. Television and radio are highly regulated, the words “hell” and “damn” are even prohibited. Rock and roll is out of the bag. Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr. have made the news. Sputnik has not been launched. People still dress up to shop and travel.

A Dropshot war breaks out between the US and USSR. The US makes quick strikes, disabling Soviet communication. The war is over in two months, so it does not earn the title World War III. The USSR collapses, but there were nukes. One reached the US as a shot-down bomber explodes in a sparsely populated part of Delaware. The RAF shot bombers down before any could hit Britain. Some US air bases were hit in Germany but western Europe was not disabled. In other words, recovery begins before a significant number of troops can finish boot camp.

Buddy Holly graduates from high school in Lubbock. The to-be Quarrymen are studying music in Liverpool. There is no space race. NATO has no strategic enemies. Mao has no nukes. Two Vietnams remain in stalemate like Korea. You have butterflied away the space race and the Vietnam war. The Baby Boom still goes on, as the United States is more secure than ever. It is safe to say there will be no counter-culture protests in the sixties as we know them, but civil rights, interracial marriage and birth control will still be major issues. Young people don’t protest the draft; in fact, there are so many enlistees that it becomes little more than symbolic.

Can such a scenario preserve much of the civility and formality of earlier times?

Very... dystopic. While the ideology is a non factor, I think that it is too radical to make the world get close to the crapsack level to keep the dresscode.

 

[Tjakari]

Very... dystopic. While the ideology is a non factor, I think that it is too radical to make the world get close to the crapsack level to keep the dresscode.

Nothing is too radical, in the name of fashion.

 

[Gukpard]

Nothing is too radical, in the name of fashion.

Good point :v but this is still not "ideal"... can you think of a scenario without like, 10 million people dying just to keep the suit popular?