Could a hypothetical German-Soviet-Italian Axis subdue allied N. Africa and Levant?

Assuming Operation Pike was carried out, and the USSR remained an Axis co-belligerent longer (though obviously not forever), would that have enabled the Germans/Italians to carry out a more decisive campaign in N. Africa and the Med? And, could they've split with them the former Entente mandates in the Middle East?
 
Assuming Operation Pike was carried out, and the USSR remained an Axis co-belligerent longer (though obviously not forever), would that have enabled the Germans/Italians to carry out a more decisive campaign in N. Africa and the Med? And, could they've split with them the former Entente mandates in the Middle East?

Royal Navy says hi
 

Deleted member 1487

BTW these probably get mass manufactured and are used to bomb British cities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petlyakov_Pe-8
pe8book.jpg

  • Bombs: Up to 5,000 kg (11,000 lb), including the FAB 5000 5000kg bomb
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAB-5000_bomb
Weight 5,000 kg (11,000 lb)
Filling TNT, RDX and aluminium powder
Filling weight 3,200 kg (7,100 lb)

The Directorate of Logistics of the Air Forces eventually requested to Gelperin the development of a five-ton bomb, capable of being dropped by the Pe-8, the heaviest Soviet bomber of the time.[2] The definitive version of the FAB-5000 was fitted with six contact lateral fuses, and the warhead was filled with 3,200 kg (7,100 lb) of an explosive mixture of TNT, RDX, and aluminium powder. The number of fuses ensured that the force of the blast would disperse laterally, which increases the damage in areas such as industrial compounds and military facilities.[3] In order to load the device, the bomb bay doors had to remain half-open. The tests, however, were successful.[2] Two bombs were dropped, one from an altitude of 4,000 m and the other from 3,300 m. The first bomb fell in open ground, leaving a crater 6 metres (20 ft) in diameter and 3 metres (9.8 ft) in depth. Grass in a radius of 150 m was charred. The second bomb landed in the woods, and left a crater of 8 metres (26 ft) in diameter and 3 metres (9.8 ft) in depth. Some 600 trees were torn out within a 70 m radius, while 30 percent of the trees within 135 m also fell down. Later tests produced craters up to 20 metres (66 ft) in diameter and 9 metres (30 ft) in depth.[3]

The first combat use of the FAB-5000 took place on the night of 28 April 1943, when coastal fortifications at Königsberg were hit.[2] The Pe-8 bomber that launched the bomb from an altitude of 5,800 m was shaken by the shockwave of the explosion.[3] On 19 July 1943, during the battle of Kursk, two Pe-8 dropped two bombs on a railroad yard near Orel,[3] ripping apart a 100 m section of the railway and obliterating dozens of railcarsand German military vehicles.[2] Railroads and fuel depots had already been hit around Orel with one bomb on 4 June and with two bombs on 3 July. Two attacks were carried out on advancing German troops on 12 July, but further tactical use was suspended to avoid the risk of friendly fire.[3] Soviet sources also claim that two buildings occupied by the Gestapo and the Belarusian Auxiliary Police were demolished by two FAB-5000 bombs at the city of Mogilev, Belarus,[4] apparently on 26 May 1943. On 7 February 1944, another two FAB-5000 bombs were dropped on Helsinki, in the course of the 1944 Great Raids.[3] The city's tram terminal and the train station were destroyed.[5] A couple of days later, two more bombs fell on Finland's capital. The last FAB-5000 was dropped on the railway station of Brailiv (Wikidata), Ukraine, on 9 March 1944, during the Soviet offensive on Kamenets-Podolsky pocket, halting all railroad traffic for several days.[3]

They were a mini-MOAB.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Red Army and Air Force projecting power into the Middle East say 'sup. Turkey says don't hurt me Axis powers. Britain says ouch.
^

This.

Indeed, I think that the manpower advantage is simply too overwhelming for Britain to avoid losing the war at this point in this TL.
 
Red Army and Air Force projecting power into the Middle East say 'sup. Turkey says don't hurt me Axis powers. Britain says ouch.

The Red Air Force units at the time are more or less moving target for the RAF and at the time the Red Army had such problem in quality of men that made the italian army look good and their equipment was not very good; still they have a big advantage in numbers and in the end they will win
 
What about india? I mean if anythig its more easy to The british to simply recruit a lot of manpower from india and shipping it to egypt and middle east, un OTL the polític cost are bigger than the risk but with this scenario maybe its a more palatable option
 

Deleted member 1487

The Red Air Force units at the time are more or less moving target for the RAF and at the time the Red Army had such problem in quality of men that made the italian army look good and their equipment was not very good; still they have a big advantage in numbers and in the end they will win
In 1940 or '41 in western Europe in daylight sure, but in the Middle East the Brits lacked modern aircraft and were comparable to Soviet standard issue while at night over Britain their night fighters weren't particularly efficient yet. The Soviets could put together an expeditionary force by stripping out prepared units and equipment as needed, especially with the German front secured by a full alliance. They did after all manage to invade Iran in 1941 during Barbarossa despite all the problems they had. As it was though modern Soviet aircraft weren't all that bad, but needed time to train pilots on them and in modern tactics.
 
wonder how the three would have proposed to split the various territories? somewhat depends on where Operation Pike was launched from?
 
As it was though modern Soviet aircraft weren't all that bad, but needed time to train pilots on them and in modern tactics.

it was a problem during great part of the war; even the air component of the italian army in russia or the Finnish using already outdated model scored a lot of victories against the Soviet Air Forces in the middle of the war; mantenaince and training (for both pilots and crew) were the serious problem, plus the use of outdated tattics.
Iran was more a walkover without a real opposition, fighting actively the British is different and by now the main tank of the Red Army is the T-26
 
What about india? I mean if anythig its more easy to The british to simply recruit a lot of manpower from india and shipping it to egypt and middle east, un OTL the polític cost are bigger than the risk but with this scenario maybe its a more palatable option

I assume India would probably see some action. The Soviets would likely move against Iran, which, in turn, would likely bring them into conflict with the British in Sistan and Baluchestan.

Now, how overstretched the Soviets would end up, how well Indian colonial troops would fare against the Red Army and how many sources & people would the UK manage to squeeze out of the Raj without getting a heated reaction are also questions up for debate.
 

Deleted member 1487

it was a problem during great part of the war; even the air component of the italian army in russia or the Finnish using already outdated model scored a lot of victories against the Soviet Air Forces in the middle of the war; mantenaince and training (for both pilots and crew) were the serious problem, plus the use of outdated tattics.
Iran was more a walkover without a real opposition, fighting actively the British is different and by now the main tank of the Red Army is the T-26
The Italian air force showed up after the Soviets had been decimated by the Germans and were caught in the middle of an equipment modernization scheme and expansion during purges. The Finns also enjoyed that bonus during the Continuation War. A USSR not facing Barbarossa wouldn't have that problem and would be facing the RAF B and C team in the Middle East, as the best remained in Britain or Malta.

The British Middle East forces are mostly occupation units and weren't prepared to face a major fight against an enemy like the Soviets, would had effectively endless reserves and no other fronts, unlike the Brits.
 
The Italian air force showed up after the Soviets had been decimated by the Germans and were caught in the middle of an equipment modernization scheme and expansion during purges. The Finns also enjoyed that bonus during the Continuation War. A USSR not facing Barbarossa wouldn't have that problem and would be facing the RAF B and C team in the Middle East, as the best remained in Britain or Malta.

The British Middle East forces are mostly occupation units and weren't prepared to face a major fight against an enemy like the Soviets, would had effectively endless reserves and no other fronts, unlike the Brits.

And IRC the Red Air Force higher up (among others) has just been purged due to the high incident rate and all the problem found during the Winter War are even less resolved here than during Barbarossa and sure it will end with a Soviet victory...but more due to the sheer amount of men available to Stalin than to real military capacity and i expect staggering loss for the soviets.

Plus this entire scenario had a problem, Benny working actively with the Soviet even if they are considered Co-belligerant and not allies will be beyond problematic at home
 

Deleted member 1487

And IRC the Red Air Force higher up (among others) has just been purged due to the high incident rate and all the problem found during the Winter War are even less resolved here than during Barbarossa and sure it will end with a Soviet victory...but more due to the sheer amount of men available to Stalin than to real military capacity and i expect staggering loss for the soviets.

Plus this entire scenario had a problem, Benny working actively with the Soviet even if they are considered Co-belligerant and not allies will be beyond problematic at home
Again against what? The RAF in the Middle East wasn't the sort of aces the RAF in Britain were, let alone the Luftwaffe in 1941 or the Finns. Even the Italians were FAR better trained and more experienced, but the RAF in the Middle East was a not flying technically superior aircraft or using modern tactics either even if they were better trained.
Plus there will be Luftwaffe basing in Syria due to not now having to invade Russia, while Turkey can be strong armed into the Axis and even Vichy could well end up fighting on the Axis side just to defend their colonies.
The Syria-Lebanon campaign only involved about 50-60 RAF aircraft, while the North African/East African campaign in 1941 pulled in so many British resources that could not be diverted.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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Why should the British forces in southwest Asia do much better against the Soviets than the British forces in Southeast Asia did against Japan ?
 
Why should the British forces in southwest Asia do much better against the Soviets than the British forces in Southeast Asia did against Japan ?
cuz the Japanese pilots were elite pilots fly competitive aircraft. the Russians are average at best flying obsolete junk, mostly I 15 and I 16 at this point
 
wonder how the three would have proposed to split the various territories? somewhat depends on where Operation Pike was launched from?

what would the Soviets be doing? still producing oil, Germany and Italy would not be starved for fuel.

Germany certainly sends larger force to Syria, Turkey likely not an obstacle to supplies? do not have a prediction on success of Iraqi coup, but do not think German and Vichy forces are going to be evicted from Syria-Lebanon.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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Why was a Hitler-Stalin pact a thing possible for a time while a Mussolini-Stalin pact was not?

Was it because Hitler's power was more total, so he could turn the country on a dime, while Italian society had more institutions with a degree of independence, like the monarchy and church?
 
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