Could a fascistic Butler and the American Legion overthrow the U.S?

Then we are at an impasse, as I see your position in the same light, with neither of us able to provide sufficient proof to sway the other. We are arguing questions over the minds and hearts of men, which are ultimately unknowable other than by the actions they took historically. It seems we must agree to disagree.
V/R Bill
 
I can say the ranks of the Legion were fairly diverse & did not closely reflect the relatively conservative WASP leadership. In Indiana in the early 1920s the Legion rejected efforts by the revived Klan to establish close ties. In some cases Klan representatives were ejected from Legion meetings.

I grew up among the aging WWI veterans and was closely acquainted with a number of local Legion members from that era. I can't see those guys falling in uniformly behind a pro Facist leadership. Certainly some would. But, the majority I think would take a pass on it.
 

Deleted member 106560

A fascist coup would most likely not succeed in America. America has a long tradition of individualism that goes against the collectivism of a fascist society. The public would not support a fascist coup, even in the 30s. I just can't see Americans wanting an extremely strong central government. Some people in the military might support a coup, but the public would resist it.
 
A fascist coup would most likely not succeed in America. America has a long tradition of individualism that goes against the collectivism of a fascist society. The public would not support a fascist coup, even in the 30s. I just can't see Americans wanting an extremely strong central government. Some people in the military might support a coup, but the public would resist it.

I've heard this line before, and I'd probably swallow it a lot more easily if the authoritarianism of the First and Second Red Scares hadn't been tolerated and supported by the American public with nary a whimper. Honestly, I feel like this country talks a big game about resisting encroaching tyranny, only to immediately sit down, shut up, and fall into line the moment it actually rears its head. Our social atomization makes us sitting ducks for divida et impera.
 

Deleted member 106560

I've heard this line before, and I'd probably swallow it a lot more easily if the authoritarianism of the First and Second Red Scares hadn't been tolerated and supported by the American public with nary a whimper. Honestly, I feel like this country talks a big game about resisting encroaching tyranny, only to immediately sit down, shut up, and fall into line the moment it actually rears its head. Our social atomization makes us sitting ducks for divida et impera.
The thing about the Red Scare was that the American public viewed the government as resisting authoritarianism by going against communism. I personally do not think that Americans would support fascism over democracy. They may support fascism over communism though.
 
The thing about the Red Scare was that the American public viewed the government as resisting authoritarianism by going against communism. I personally do not think that Americans would support fascism over democracy. They may support fascism over communism though.

They don't have to support anything. They just need to keep their heads down and keep walking, just like the populace of every other non-democracy. That's the easiest thing in the world, really.
 
They don't have to support anything. They just need to keep their heads down and keep walking, just like the populace of every other non-democracy. That's the easiest thing in the world, really.

For the common folk, perhaps. But I imagine the State governments, if attempts were made to corral them into a centralized regime and their local power bases getting squashed, as well as the leadership of the Democratic and Republican parties, might make a stink about these minority of upstrarts trying to usurp their power. And through long periods of political activity they know how to rile up the population.

Butler needs to get a larger percentage of the elites behind him if we wants to pull off that kind of bloodless coup.
 
For the common folk, perhaps. But I imagine the State governments, if attempts were made to corral them into a centralized regime and their local power bases getting squashed, as well as the leadership of the Democratic and Republican parties, might make a stink about these minority of upstrarts trying to usurp their power. And through long periods of political activity they know how to rile up the population.

Butler needs to get a larger percentage of the elites behind him if we wants to pull off that kind of bloodless coup.

Well, I think we may have had this talk before in another thread. In any case, it's pointless, since we both agree that regardless of potential resistance, there just wasn't a solid constituency for the coup itself, so this is never getting off the ground.
 
I can say the ranks of the Legion were fairly diverse & did not closely reflect the relatively conservative WASP leadership. In Indiana in the early 1920s the Legion rejected efforts by the revived Klan to establish close ties. In some cases Klan representatives were ejected from Legion meetings.

I grew up among the aging WWI veterans and was closely acquainted with a number of local Legion members from that era. I can't see those guys falling in uniformly behind a pro Facist leadership. Certainly some would. But, the majority I think would take a pass on it.
Also, so we're all clear the AL supported FDR IOTL, even after he cut vet benefits.

Thank you all very much for this. My scenario was quite a bit flawed, and I appreciate the time you took out of your day to explain this to me.
 
Yer welcome. The PoD needs to revolve around the creation of a large & genuine facist organization. The revived KKK of 1915-1922 had potential, but lacked a charismatic and ruthless leader. There were also some miscalculations in early policy focusing on ethnic groups which diverted attention from moral or political issues.
 
Yer welcome. The PoD needs to revolve around the creation of a large & genuine facist organization. The revived KKK of 1915-1922 had potential, but lacked a charismatic and ruthless leader. There were also some miscalculations in early policy focusing on ethnic groups which diverted attention from moral or political issues.

Well, let's slow down a bit. I've expressed some reservations already, but this subject has come up before, and there was an excellently detailed proposal from @Emperor Julian, which I'll wrap in a spoiler since it's quite long.

Warren Harding does not die, and runs again in 1924, despite being hit by a series of scandals. He wins, but his victory is much weaker than Coolidge's OTL landslide. Meanwhile, butterflies prevent the D.C. Stephenson scandal from ever appearing, and the KKK continues to grow in influence. Further scandals erupt in Harding's second term, forcing him to resign midway through. Al Smith manages to narrowly win in 1928, beating a Republican Party hit by so many scandals and political infighting. President Smith then faces the Depression, and tries a series of half-measures, akin to Hoover. These fail to alleviate the situation, and the country snaps back to the early 1920s Republican dominance, with huge waves wrecking the Democrats in 1930 and 1932. Smith's Catholicism leads to a huge surge in KKK activity, with the Klan now under the full control of Stephenson seizing control of many Southern Democratic Parties and Republican state parties across the country. Conservative Republican Senator James Eli Watson wins 1932 in a landslide, and decides to return to the conservatism of the 1920s rather than the moderate Progressivism of the failed Smith administration. This fails to help the economy, and Watson soon finds himself out of touch with the American people.

The 1934 midterms see a massive revolt of the left against two parties which have failed the American workers. The Farmer-Labor Party spreads from Minnesota, while the Progressive breakaway of the LaFollettes gains support outside of Wisconsin. Meanwhile in the South, populist Huey Long is seen by many as the one man capable of standing up to the KKK, and begins to tear the Democrats apart. In 1936, a terribly unpopular Watson is renominated due to Stephenson's support, leading to a revolt of Progressive Republicans. The Democratic Party is also torn apart, with conservatives backing Garner and leftists backing Long. The left-wing breakaways unite under charismatic and popular Minnesota governor Floyd Olson, who chooses Long as his running mate to unite north and south. At the beginning of the campaign, Olson is seen by many as the one man who can save America, and enjoys a huge lead against a divided opposition.

Within weeks of being nominated Olson dies of cancer.

The left faction, suddenly without its leader, chooses Huey Long to be its new standard-bearer. Long wins in a landslide, but without clear majorities in Congress loyal to him. His radical and ill thought out proposals soon stall in the legislature, so he begins to enact a series of increasingly controversial executive orders. When the courts strike down his orders, Long defies them, knowing that he has enough loyalists in the Senate to prevent himself from getting removed from office. Terrified of an increasingly radical, obviously incompetent president who is blatantly defying the Constitution, several big businesses join a conspiracy to remove Long from office. Led by General George Van Horn Moseley and backed by the KKK, they carry out a coup. Long is killed, his administration and supporters in Congress arrested for treason, and Moseley takes control during a state of emergency. When communist-lead unions erupt in open revolt, businesses continue to back Moseley as he crushes communism and saves capitalism in America.

Too late to those same businessmen realize that now that opposition from the far-left has been crushed, Moseley has the tools to destroy all opposition. Too late does D.C. Stephenson realize that Moseley sees him as a threat; his sexual crimes are exposed and he is executed, with the KKK being dissolved, its members instead joining the new National Police Force or the military directly. Moseley outlaws all civil rights organizations, with the ACLU and NAACP being declared criminals. Southern-style segregation soon begins to be introduced across the nation, as black people are disenfranchised country-wide. Prohibition is escalated, with a reign of terror carried out against the Catholic Italian and Irish communities, and restrictions getting enacted against marijuana as well. A moralist crackdown against homosexuals, feminists, atheists, and other minorities begins. But the minority group most afraid in the U.S. is the Jewish community, as Supreme General Moseley meets repeatedly with his newfound ally, Adolf Hitler, with whom he shares many views and opinions...

Julian knows way more about 1920's and 30's America than I do, so I can't nitpick this very well, but it seems like it might cause everything to fall into place.
 
Thank you all very much for this. My scenario was quite a bit flawed, and I appreciate the time you took out of your day to explain this to me.

Thank you for being willing to listen; it’s rarer than one might think. The number of threads that get made for the blatant purpose of validating a preconceived scenario/idea that is clearly fatally flawed and gets defended to the death by the OP even so is amazing.
 
I located the sole source I now have on the subject, I hope it proves useful. (Embarrassingly it was on the shelf and in plain view. I blame the effects of Daemon Rhum....) The book is "THE PLOT TO SEIZE THE WHITE HOUSE", Jules Archer, Hawthorne Books Inc., NY, 1973. It's a bit dry in places, but gives a good idea of what apparently happened. As I said earlier I've not taken/found the time to look further into the subject, there may well be more out there.
Regards, Bill
 
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