Could a Democratic Germany Actually Work?

The only real attempt at creating a demorcatic Germany was the Frankfurt Parliament. But could the Frankfurt parliament really work? From what I have heard it suffered from poor leadership and a lack of orginization. There is also the fact that although the parliment was garuenteed the military backing of Prussia it was not really much of a promise.

So what do you think? Could it have succeded?
 
The Wiemar govermant? NEVER in a miilion years. The citezens were too angry, too many fringe parties wanting to twist power, and it was only set up as a Versailles oreder. I bet half of the gov. wanted to still be Kaiser.
 
The Wiemar govermant? NEVER in a miilion years. The citezens were too angry, too many fringe parties wanting to twist power, and it was only set up as a Versailles oreder. I bet half of the gov. wanted to still be Kaiser.

...Erm... he was talking about 1848, I believe. ;)

I suspect it could, if it had a chance; just getting the chance would be a really, really hard thing. Unless you have a more generally successful 1848 the conservative powers are going to be laying the smack down on Germany come 1849.

Also: great title. Many fun thread juxtapositions from this one. :D
 

Deleted member 1487

Weimar was something completely different, but anyway....
An unqualified NO. I have read up on the issue, as it is my favorite POD and the answer of EVERYONE is no. Basically the union idea was to ask all the princes to step down and give one of them a figurehead position while they had all the power. The parliament did not have popular support, especially as the middle class sold out the working class. That rift killed things quickly. They also had no military forces and were relying on the good will of enlightened despots. That is why OTL the unification had to be done the way it was. The people were not willing to overthrow their monarchies and risk fighting the various armies of the principalities. It was not going to happen unless German society was radically different, which would mean a different POD anyway.
 
Weimar was something completely different, but anyway....
An unqualified NO. I have read up on the issue, as it is my favorite POD and the answer of EVERYONE is no. Basically the union idea was to ask all the princes to step down and give one of them a figurehead position while they had all the power. The parliament did not have popular support, especially as the middle class sold out the working class. That rift killed things quickly. They also had no military forces and were relying on the good will of enlightened despots. That is why OTL the unification had to be done the way it was. The people were not willing to overthrow their monarchies and risk fighting the various armies of the principalities. It was not going to happen unless German society was radically different, which would mean a different POD anyway.

So what about this.

Fredrick William or whatever his name was excepts the crown of "King of all the Germans" and gives the Parliament full military backing. What then?
 

Deleted member 1487

War to make all the other states fall in line and a badly divided Germany that gets invaded by outside powers. Oh and Friedrich would have to give up all real power to the parliament, which no king in their right mind would do, let alone Freddie. For this to work, there would have to be popular backing that forces the various princes out of power and takes one as a figurehead. It would also require a strongman in charge of the negotiations in Frankfurt instead of the kindly old guy they got OTL. Pick another POD and it might work, but the basic option doesn't. Germany just was not ready.
 
If the King of Prussia had accepted the Frankfurt Parliament's crown, I'm fairly sure that he could have united Germany (maybe even the Austrian bit). While outside invasion is a possibility, that invasion would probably both fail to topple the new Second Reich and in fact legitimize the regime in the eyes of Germans.

The new Prussian Emperor is going to be better off allowing the Frankfurt Parliament a good amount of room, because the Frankfurt Parliament is going to want to centralize power and tear down the walls between the former German statelets. Additionally, the Frankfurt Parliament was not dominated by particularly economically or socially radical individuals- they were just German nationalists. With the stunning military victory won in the German War of Liberation 1848-51 military spending that will satisfy the Prussians should be safe for at least a generation. The Emperor is going to be able to get major concessions from Frankfurt in the process of accepting the crown.

Basically, if the Prussian King had any ambition, he would have taken the Imperial crown. Frederick the Great would have. Be like Fred.
 
The '48 Parliament was hopelessly naive and terminally accommodationist. That's not to say the revolution couldn't have succeeded, but it would have had to go differently. The King of Prussia is the wrong horse to bet on, though. Even if he were to accept the crown, he would simnply walk over parliament and create his own state in the medium term.

I'd say your best bet is Western/Southwestern Germany. Support for a liberal solution is strongest there, many of the princes would be amenable, and it's right next door to France, whose support will be needed in the coming war. Of course, whatever Germany results will be the mother of all kleindeutsche Lösungen, but the chances are better for a nationalist reform of the Bund with Prussia and Austria leaving than it is for Prussia turning democratic.

The alternative would be a much more radical Berlin revolution. The majority of the Prussian population was fairly indifferent to their junkers, so if the good people of Berlin, instead of sitting down to talk and convince their king, had broken out the guilloutine early and started on the royal family and general staff, they could have taken power. Of course that is massively out of character.
 
The alternative would be a much more radical Berlin revolution. The majority of the Prussian population was fairly indifferent to their junkers, so if the good people of Berlin, instead of sitting down to talk and convince their king, had broken out the guilloutine early and started on the royal family and general staff, they could have taken power. Of course that is massively out of character.

Matthius Corvinus once suggested something along these lines, in a TL where the Napoleonic Empire still dominates Germany. Though I have no idea how German nationalism goes in such a world, egalitarian republicanism as the response to the Westphalian decadence might be amusing.
 
Matthius Corvinus once suggested something along these lines, in a TL where the Napoleonic Empire still dominates Germany. Though I have no idea how German nationalism goes in such a world, egalitarian republicanism as the response to the Westphalian decadence might be amusing.

Ah, I think the German princes were essentially collaborating with the Napoleonic Empire, so German nationalism starts equating the end of the monarchies with the beginning of Germany. Or workers' movements end up as the primary vehicle of German nationalism in the latter half of the 19th century. Either way- headless princes.
 
The '48 Parliament was hopelessly naive and terminally accommodationist. That's not to say the revolution couldn't have succeeded, but it would have had to go differently. The King of Prussia is the wrong horse to bet on, though. Even if he were to accept the crown, he would simply walk over parliament and create his own state in the medium term.

That's possible, but the Reichstag (which is what I'd propose the Frankfurt Parliament would become once the Second Reich comes into existence) would probably give the Prussian King a good deal of power as Emperor, and the Frankfurt Parliament is going to be important if the new Emperor wants to create a unitary state (which I would say this new Emperor does, since he accepted the offer to become Emperor). Basically, by accepting the crown from Frankfurt, the Prussian King has given Frankfurt a good deal of legitimacy and quite a bit of military backing. He's also made it likely that as German princes fall, the people who overthrow them will ask Frankfurt to annex them.

Throw in a foreign intervention, where Frankfurt enacts legislation to start levee en masse, and the creation of a large, albeit Prussian commanded, new German Army, and I think Frankfurt has shown its a useful body to have around. Frankfurt's also going to be writing the new German constitution. It might end up being curtailed or having less power, but I think that if the Prussian King accepts Frankfurt's crown, then he has basically guaranteed Frankfurt's continued existance.

I'd say your best bet is Western/Southwestern Germany. Support for a liberal solution is strongest there, many of the princes would be amenable, and it's right next door to France, whose support will be needed in the coming war. Of course, whatever Germany results will be the mother of all kleindeutsche Lösungen, but the chances are better for a nationalist reform of the Bund with Prussia and Austria leaving than it is for Prussia turning democratic.

I think Prussia was picked in large part because of its military. The Prussian King has the Army to make his Imperial reign stick. The small princes in SW Germany might be liberals, but they don't have the military force. Also, I would bet France is not going to support the creation of a united Germany. In fact, if some kind of united Germany emerged from 1848, I would bet that France might become part of international coalition to end the experiment in German nationalism.

The alternative would be a much more radical Berlin revolution. The majority of the Prussian population was fairly indifferent to their junkers, so if the good people of Berlin, instead of sitting down to talk and convince their king, had broken out the guilloutine early and started on the royal family and general staff, they could have taken power. Of course that is massively out of character.

And after executing these people, the other Army commanders who aren't in the city mobilize the Army, enter the city, and execute lots of people Commune of Paris '71 style. Then another branch of the Prussian royal family is found and placed on the throne. Berlin is a mess. The Revolution is over.

Frankfurt in '48 is the KEY.
 

Susano

Banned
No, of course German democracy could not work. Dont you know were inherently evil? Its in our blood!:rolleyes:

Ehem. As for 1848, it couldve worked indeed if Frederick William IV had taken the crown. Of course, this wouldve required a completly different FW4, so a PoD pre-birth is needed. In such a case, yes, this would mean Prussia usurping the whole thing, but if we assume as PoD a democratic-nationalist romantic FW4 instead of a reactionary romantic FW4 (which seems, psychologcially, not that far apart...), it could well still be a democratic Germany.

Another scenario is any Germany-witzhot-Prussia ssembling and then conquering Prussia. Why not, revolutionary levee-en-masse worked for France, no?
 
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Thande

Donor
Another scenario is any Germany-witzhot-Prussia ssembling and then conquering Prussia. Why not, revolutionary levee-en-masse worked for France, no?

I think India in 1947 is a better analogy, the only places France conquered in that way were Avignon and, temporarily, Belgium.
 

Susano

Banned
I think India in 1947 is a better analogy, the only places France conquered in that way were Avignon and, temporarily, Belgium.

And Salm and... yeah, okay, nobody cares for petty HRE remnaints in the Alsace ;)

But they defended themselves against what people at the time thought were the odds using levee en masse.

Oh, and North Italy, though it took Napoleon to achieve that.
 
And Salm and... yeah, okay, nobody cares for petty HRE remnaints in the Alsace ;)

But they defended themselves against what people at the time thought were the odds using levee en masse.

Oh, and North Italy, though it took Napoleon to achieve that.

Using Napoleon is like cheating.

So basically you figure that it is more or less impossible? Unless the revolution is worse elsewhere so the princes are overthrown.
 
I think Prussia was picked in large part because of its military. The Prussian King has the Army to make his Imperial reign stick. The small princes in SW Germany might be liberals, but they don't have the military force. Also, I would bet France is not going to support the creation of a united Germany. In fact, if some kind of united Germany emerged from 1848, I would bet that France might become part of international coalition to end the experiment in German nationalism.

Of course France in '48 is really in no fit state to do this, so it does depend on holding out long enough to wait for NapIII to enter the game, but from the perspexctive of Paris, they would be taking apart Germany, not unifying it. A successful 'German' nationalist revolution in the western parts requires Prussia out of the picture, perhaps much like Austria is (hands tied due to trouble in the provinces), or because its own revolution is temporarily more successful. Prussia turning to deal with a revolutionary West later, after it constituted itself as 'Germany', hoping to include Prussia and Austria, may give the French the opportunity to rip the German Bund out of the Holy Alliance's control. The result is a tripartite Germany: Prussia, autocratic and hurt, Austria, dependent on Russian support, and 'Germany', a French puppet in the face of both powerful neighbours wanting revenge.

Especially if the French take away the Prussian Rhineland.

Of course it's stupid. Most 19th century wars were stupid ideas. But it looks viable, and France in 1848 can beat Prussia easily.
 

Thande

Donor
And Salm and... yeah, okay, nobody cares for petty HRE remnaints in the Alsace ;)

But they defended themselves against what people at the time thought were the odds using levee en masse.

Oh, and North Italy, though it took Napoleon to achieve that.
Yes but that's not comparable to what you were saying about Rest of Germany conquering Prussia by levée en masse, because North Italy is not culturally French and was not integrated into France (Don't raise the issue of Savoy and Nice later on...)

Using Napoleon is like cheating.

Sigworthy :D
 

Deleted member 1487

Why not have Friedrich the 4 backstab the parliament? I know OTL he did not have the cut-throat personality, but if he did, he could use the nationalistic fervor to create ueber-Prussia. The parliament was really only a planning committee that was to set up the convention where the actual issues would be voted on. If Friedrich agreed with them and then abandoned most of what they wanted except for some tokens, like a Reichstag, then the 2nd Reich comes ~20 years earlier. What does that do to the balance of power and do we see a WW1?
 
No, of course German democracy could not work. Dont you know were inherently evil? Its in our blood!:rolleyes:

I have faith! I do!

Ehem. As for 1848, it couldve worked indeed if Frederick William IV had taken the crown. Of course, this wouldve required a completly different FW4, so a PoD pre-birth is needed. In such a case, yes, this would mean Prussia usurping the whole thing, but if we assume as PoD a democratic-nationalist romantic FW4 instead of a reactionary romantic FW4 (which seems, psychologcially, not that far apart...), it could well still be a democratic Germany.

Okay, lets do that. FW4, nationalist romantic who dreams of a united Enlightened Germany and sighs.

Another scenario is any Germany-witzhot-Prussia ssembling and then conquering Prussia. Why not, revolutionary levee-en-masse worked for France, no?

Prussia needs to take the Imperial crown to allow Germany to emerge- I don't think that Germany could emerge on its own without one of the German Great Powers (Austria or Prussia) driving the unification. However, a real sense of German nationalism could be forged on the battlefield if the Frankfurt Parliament calls for levee en masse to battle the foreign intervention.

With a unifying Germany, does Napoleon III emerge more quickly as the Emperor of France? That would provide the country some stability and leadership. Napoleon III is thrust into office, and raises the French armies to make sure the Germans stay on the right side of the Rhine. The battles go well for a little while, but when the French go over the Rhine their facing huge, Prussian-led armies. As Napoleon I said "God is on the side of big battalions".
 
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