Copycat Burgundies

The Burgundian state (as of the 15th century) enjoys an extraordinary popularity here. This is for an obvious reason: It is quite impressing how a regional power arises where before there was not even an independent state - and almost completely by marriage and inheritance and not through war.

There are many other examples of states outstanding growth by marriage - but mostly the acquiring dynasty (as the Plantagenets or the Habsburgs) already had held a powerful position before. In the case of Burgundy, however, several wealthy, but rather limited duchies united into a state which could well have acquired independent status.

The only comparable situation which comes to my mind is the union of Castilia and Aragon, which formed a great power out of two rather marginal kingdoms; also a promotion to another league.

Coming back closer to the Burgundian example, which complex of principalities in Western/Central Europe could have formed in the same era and led to a comparable surge of power?

Of course, almost complete adjacency of territories was a particular strength of Burgundy - so let's go for something similar.

The perfect rival for Burgundy would be a power separating the Burgundian territories from each other, so what about a personal union of Champagne-Lotharingia-Palatinate?


Do you have other suggestions?
 
Calling the status Aragon and Castille marginal in the period of their union is IMHO an exaggeration, they weren't a top player such as France, but they were at least medium powers.

Furthermore the original duchy of Burgundy (proper) had the first rank among the French duchies, although the duchies and counties in the low countries were relatively small but very wealthy (and densily populated).

A possible contender is the united duchies of Julich, Cleves, Berg and counties of Mark and Ravensberg if they would have managed to keep the duchy of Gelre and county of Zutphen and other northern parts of the Low Countries (modern day Overijssel, Drenthe, Friesland and Groningen) and perhaps even East Frisia.
 
I quite like the idea of Champagne-Lorraine-Palatinate :)

Part of the thing with Burgundy I guess would be that the rulers held lands straddling neighbouring Kingdoms where one was not inherently stronger than the other and so the land did not pass from one to the other (e.g. Silesia, Slavonia.)

It brings to mind the Dukes of Slesvig (Denmark) and Holstein (HRE).

Alter this slightly - maybe maintain a Kalmar Union - and have a Mecklenburg-Slesvig union.

Others could be Milan-Tyrol-Upper Bavaria - though such a thing would forestall modern Italy making it wholly HRE.
Mecklenburg-Pomerania (HRE, Poland)
Toulouse-Barcelona - though would likely produce an independent state ;)
 
Others could be Milan-Tyrol-Upper Bavaria - though such a thing would forestall modern Italy making it wholly HRE.
Toulouse-Barcelona - though would likely produce an independent state ;)

These are two cool suggestions.
So a PoD around the Bavarian War of Succession ...

With the others, there are the problems that those territories are much less populous, and that they might be drawn into the reach of one crown (e.g. Denmark).
 
Calling the status Aragon and Castille marginal in the period of their union is IMHO an exaggeration

You're right. Still a promotion of leagues I suppose.

A possible contender is the united duchies of Julich, Cleves, Berg and counties of Mark and Ravensberg if they would have managed to keep the duchy of Gelre and county of Zutphen and other northern parts of the Low Countries (modern day Overijssel, Drenthe, Friesland and Groningen) and perhaps even East Frisia.

That's a good alternative.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Brandenburg-Prussia is a rather obvious OTL example that comes to mind. As, in fact, is France.
 
Champagne was personal demesne of the Kings of France after 1310. Before that, Champagne is personal demesne of the Kings of Navarre, who would have little interest into intermarrying with Germans in such a way that could provoke a union with Lorraine and the Palatinate.

For that matter, the Duchy of Lorraine is attached to the County of Provence, the Duchy of Anjou (and thus Maine) and for a while, the Kingdom of Naples. It...gets a little complicated with that family. Anyway, I'm not sure you could disentangle these entities from their dynastic ownership to create such a state.

Of course, a Burgundy - Champagne-Lorraine-everything else rivalry would be interesting, though...especially since the two states would be competing for a piece of land about the size of Luxembourg which, whomever possessed it, would divide their rival state into two. A game of war and politics over who controls a crossroads, essentially.
 
Brandenburg-Prussia is a rather obvious OTL example that comes to mind. As, in fact, is France.

Getting Prussia was a rather complicated story for Brandenburg, and I wouldn't say that Prussia elevated the de-facto position of Brandenburg too much; HIther Pomerania was more practical, but still not the leap forward I have in mind.

And France is what?

Champagne was personal demesne of the Kings of France after 1310.

Oh, that early. That makes it much harder
 
Besides Brandenburg and Prussia only entered in a personal union in 1618, so it debateable if this is considered in the same era as 'Burgundy'.
In the long run Prussia did elevate the position of the elector of Brandenburg, because the duchy of Prussia was fully independent in IIRC 1660, which turned out to be the possibility to be promoted to king (in Prussia) in around 1700 or so, but that is an even later era.
This promotion to king makes it special, because that was rare, but the lands or Brandenburg-Prussia weren't very wealthy.
 
I suppose you could argue Hannover as one. Several branches of the Welf family uniting 4 different principalities together and then inheriting Britain.

Possibly something with Hesse, Lippe, Brunswick and Nassau?
 

Susano

Banned
I suppose you could argue Hannover as one. Several branches of the Welf family uniting 4 different principalities together and then inheriting Britain.
Uh, what? You realise that those "4 principalities" came into existance as dynastic succession splits? The Welfs didnt unite lands, they simply always divided their land inheritance anew.
 
Another approach would be a southern counterweight.

Guyenne - Gascony / Aquitaine, Languedoc,Bearn, Foix, Rousilllon, and Navarre.

Might be fun.
 
Guyenne - Gascony / Aquitaine, Languedoc,Bearn, Foix, Rousilllon, and Navarre.

As Falastur has pointed out, the kings of Navarra also held the counties of Champagne and Blois. If we add - let's say Toulouse, then we have a complex of three separate random blobs on a map, but quite heavy blobs ...
You're right, might be fun.


As to the Northern German constructions:
If they are to be wealthy, they have to include several of the important cities.
So this would essentially result in a firmly state-like integrated (mini-)Hansa, or a secular version of the Teutonic Order State, or something in between ...
But this definitely belongs here, because the Burgundian state, representing the rising power of rulers sponsoring their trading cities initiated the slow fall of the Hansa - actually, the only important consequence Greater Burgundy has triggered before falling to Habsburg ...
 
As Falastur has pointed out, the kings of Navarra also held the counties of Champagne and Blois. If we add - let's say Toulouse, then we have a complex of three separate random blobs on a map, but quite heavy blobs ...
You're right, might be fun.


As to the Northern German constructions:
If they are to be wealthy, they have to include several of the important cities.
So this would essentially result in a firmly state-like integrated (mini-)Hansa, or a secular version of the Teutonic Order State, or something in between ...
But this definitely belongs here, because the Burgundian state, representing the rising power of rulers sponsoring their trading cities initiated the slow fall of the Hansa - actually, the only important consequence Greater Burgundy has triggered before falling to Habsburg ...

Well about the fall of the Hansa, that depends if you look at this matter from a Hansa or a 'Burgundian'/ (later) Dutch perspective;). However even without a Burgundy, it is still very likely that the Hanseatic League would have faced other trade wars, because at some point there would have been others to challenge a monopoly on certain trade routes.
 
Well about the fall of the Hansa, that depends if you look at this matter from a Hansa or a 'Burgundian'/ (later) Dutch perspective;). However even without a Burgundy, it is still very likely that the Hanseatic League would have faced other trade wars, because at some point there would have been others to challenge a monopoly on certain trade routes.

Denmark for one.
 
Top