Convoy HX 106

IOTL, the Scharnhorst and the Gneisnau found the HX 106 convoy escorted by the HMS Ramilles. The Captain of the Scharnhorst offered to draw away the Ramilles, but the offer was declined due to Hitlers order to no engage Capital ships. However, what if the they engaged rather than retreating? The Scharnhorst class was faster than the Ramilles and out ranged it as well, so it could have avoided the Ramilles (theoretically). If they successfully engaged, what effect would this have on British Doctorine? What about German Doctorine?
 
I don't see how Scharnhorst can 'draw away' Ramilles, it is not as if an old R class can chase her. What would have happened is that Ramilles and any destroyers would have interposed themselves between S&G and the convoy, while it turns away and the remainder of the escort makes smoke.

S&G can probably pound old Ramilles to scrap, but they would be exposed to destroyer attack. Moreover any 15in shells that hit them are going to do damage that they can ill afford to take while on a raiding cruise. Plus by the time they have dealt with Ramilles the convoy will have scattered and at best they will only be able to sink a few ships.

In this case Hitler's orders make sense. The last thing commerce raiders want is to risk being badly damaged. Especially since a very angry Royal Navy will be hunting them if they sink Ramilles.
 
It'll make for a great war film - brave old Ramillies defends her flock to the death and then the navy comes out looking for revenge.
 
That's true. Anyway, the plan was to for Scharnhorst to engage the Ramillies and Gneisenau to attack the convoy. Assuming they go along with this plan, what happens next?
 
That's true. Anyway, the plan was to for Scharnhorst to engage the Ramillies and Gneisenau to attack the convoy. Assuming they go along with this plan, what happens next?

Scharnhorst gets hit a number of times. Now the German Admiral has to decide if Scharnhorst is left to her fate (damaged, slowed, the RN is going to send her to the bottom), while Gneisenau runs away, or do they both die?

A raider who attacks a capital ship is dooming itself.
 
That's true. Anyway, the plan was to for Scharnhorst to engage the Ramillies and Gneisenau to attack the convoy. Assuming they go along with this plan, what happens next?

While S and R are slugging it out any destroyers with the convoy will try to make torpedo attacks on G and lay smoke to cover the convoy. S may win the engagement, but that is by no means certain, in any case she will pick up damage she can ill afford. The 15in Mark I was a powerful weapon, even in the '40s and its shells had the potential to do a great deal of damage to anything they hit.
G has to risk being torpedoed to achieve anything and may be left with the choice of staying with a damaged S and risking her own destruction, or leaving her to her fate.

When one is conducting commerce warfare one does not attack a convoy escorted by a ship powerful enough to cause serious damage to your own ships.
 
The fact that this was a bad idea is beyond dispute. However, the fact that it was being seriously considered ...
 

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I never got why the Germans thought using capital ships as convoy raiders was such a good idea anyways in the post cruiser rules world (a world inhabited by aircraft as well). Dozens of submarines could have been built for the same cost. For being so advanced otherwise, it seems strange the Germans were using pre-World War I tactics with their capital ships. Submarines and lighr cruisers are a far more economical choice for such work.

Back to the OP, I imagine attacking and losing or almost losing the ship would make the Germans reconsider using capital ships as commerce raiders.
 
I never got why the Germans thought using capital ships as convoy raiders was such a good idea anyways in the post cruiser rules world (a world inhabited by aircraft as well). Dozens of submarines could have been built for the same cost. For being so advanced otherwise, it seems strange the Germans were using pre-World War I tactics with their capital ships. Submarines and lighr cruisers are a far more economical choice for such work.

It's the "fleet in being" notion. Britain was inordinately concerned about heavy surface raiders. Stage one or two attacks or feints and Britain will devote considerable effort and assign considerable assets to counter the threat. If the German navy consisted only of light surface units and subs, those assets (including battleships) can be used elsewhere.
 
Its worth pointing out that the Scharnhorst class both outranged the Ramilles, and the Scharnhorst had 11 extra knots.
It's worth remembering that as nice as extra gun range is, in practise hits beyond ~24,000 yards were a rarity... baring a magazine hit, to smash up Ramilles enough to put her out of action S will need to close to the point she'll be getting 15 inch shells coming back at her.
 
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