Contact with other species of humans

Incognito

Banned
Nice TL. Had anything come of it?

I especially like your “Sapient Sasquatch” idea. Gigantopithecus blacki developing humanoid intelligence in only a few thousand years may seem far-fetched but there are fringe-researchers who believe Gigantopithecus were tool users capable of making fire. So if we assume that these fringe elements are right than “Sapient Sasquatch” may not be ASB territory.

But Ug the Neanderthal developing agriculture has one major problem: Neanderthals were more carnivorous than humans, eating much more meat and much less vegetation. So it wouldn’t make sense for Neanderthal to develop grain farming. Cattle farming on the other hand may be possible but I’m not sure if Mesopotamian region can sustain large-scale cattle herds needed to feed a hypothetical Neanderthal city-state.
One thing, there was a quite logical reason Neanderthals didn't cross to those islands, it is the same reason gorillas is terrified of water.

They couldn't swim, they simply had to big muscles.
Neanderthals couldn’t swim? Where did you hear/read that? I would be interested in checking up on this.

I never heard from those: whats a Denisovan????
Here is the wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan

you guys are aware that this is a 6 year old thread that was Necromanc'd, right?
Stop trying to ruin our fun :mad::p;)

Necroing isn’t considered to be as bad on this board as on some other forums. Though one should probably avoid necroing story threads (this is an idea thread FYI, not a story thread).
 
We seem to be assuming that the different species will stay separate.

What if some broad minded but enterprising warlord came across a group of Gigantopithecus and recruited them into his army for a promise of all the raw meat they could eat?

Armed with homo sapien weapons and home sapien armour you'd have an invincible fighting force in the pre-gunpowder age.
 
We seem to be assuming that the different species will stay separate.

What if some broad minded but enterprising warlord came across a group of Gigantopithecus and recruited them into his army for a promise of all the raw meat they could eat?

Armed with homo sapien weapons and home sapien armour you'd have an invincible fighting force in the pre-gunpowder age.

An image of the chained super-Persian that fights against Leonidas in 300 flashed before my eyes. We need an enclosed valley in the Zagros!
 

Incognito

Banned
But Ug the Neanderthal developing agriculture has one major problem: Neanderthals were more carnivorous than humans, eating much more meat and much less vegetation. So it wouldn’t make sense for Neanderthal to develop grain farming. Cattle farming on the other hand may be possible but I’m not sure if Mesopotamian region can sustain large-scale cattle herds needed to feed a hypothetical Neanderthal city-state.
Something that slipped my mind previously: IIRC societies that specialize in cattle herding tend to be nomadic since cattle have a habit of depleting the vegetable food supplies if they stay in one area too long. Thus I think a theoretical Neanderthal cattle herding society would resemble those of step nomads rather than those of early Mesopotamian city-states.
 
This is something I've done about three timelines on in my newsletters. I may have transferred one or two of them here. Not sure. I did Neanderthals in Britain (requires a refuge from the cold at the peak of the ice ages), Neanderthals in the New World (requires some breakthrough to get them across Siberia/Bering Strait), and Moving the Big Toba Volcano around.

That takes a bit of explanation. Around 72,000 years ago a huge Indonesian volcano may have created severe enough climate (seven extremely cold/dry years, then a thousand years that were nasty even by ice age standards--this thing made even the biggest historical volcanoes look like a kid's science project) that it caused a bottleneck in our species. I suspected when I wrote the scenario that the impact would have been worse for the Asian variety of Homo erectus, seeing as they got the local impacts as well as the global ones. I figured that the volcano probably knocked their population levels low enough that our ancestors were able to recover first and expand into their territory, thus leaving them in little pockets that were either absorbed or exterminated. They probably survived longer in Java, based on some late remains.

In any case, the idea was that if you moved the huge volcano forward far enough that human tech had developed into the Neolithic, the impact would kill a lot more individuals, but a smaller percentage of the population, thus leaving the Asian version of Homo erectus to compete with us into the Neolithic.

BTW: When I say "Asian version of Homo erectus" that's a little deceptive because Asian Homo erectus developed in parallel with our ancestors and in many of the same ways--larger brains, smaller jaws (probably made possible by routinely cooking food), etc.
 
By the way, the latest DNA evidence seems to indicate that a small percentage of the DNA of non-Africans did stem from Neanderthals. Geneticists were able to spot that once they had actual Neanderthal DNA. They found certain genes that were in common between Neanderthals and non-African humans, but were not shared with people of African ancestry.

Also, the DNA from the non-Neanderthal, non Homo sapiens finger bone (Denisovian (spelling?) I guess they're calling the people it stems from) has apparently been passed along to Melanesian people (from New Guinea and vicinity), where it makes up around 7% of the DNA. That's consistent with a late survival of these people in Java, and interbreeding with modern humans there before continuing on to New Guinea and the surrounding islands. I have not heard of any link with Australian aborigines, which is a bit surprising.

Apparently the part of the DNA of Neanderthals and Denisovians that survived the most was in parts of the immune system which apparently protected against diseases that were prevalent in Europe or Asia, but not Africa.
 
As to places where sort of humans could have survived: The most likely spots are the crumpled edges of Europe and Asia. Based on primitive tool findings, there were humans of some sort on Crete early enough for them to have not been from our line of humans. Sardinia and Corsica are other possibilities. In Asia, Sulawesi in Indonesia is a likely spot, as are some of the Philippine islands. A human bone fragment was recently found in the Philippines dating back before humans were thought to have reached there, but right at the margin where they could have been modern humans.
 
This theme has been explored in a number of books, including "A Different Flesh", by Harry Turtledove, which has the New World settled by Homo erectus rather than Indians.

I have a novel that hopefully will be out fairly soon where Carthage then Rome finds and enslaves a hobbit-type creature on one of the Mediterranean islands. It's tentatively called "All Timelines Lead To Rome" and I have a couple of excerpts over in the Writers' area of this forum.
 
or there is another way they could survive to modern times... if they were on the same relative intelligence level as "modern" humans. ie, they are almost (or very close 2) as advanced as humans were ~30,000 years ago but had lower population numbers. conflicts arose. so this species learned to survive by avoiding humans at all costs and survived in more remote regions with lots of forests and mountains and jungles, etc. so that by the modern era, they had fallen considerably behind in technology but were very adapt at hiding and surviving in extreme environments...


Only two ways I can see survival of other species: a) they're bigger or meaner or more psychotic than us, so our ancestors give them a wide berth or b) like 'Flo the hobbit woman', they're in isolated areas and we don't come across them until we've achieved a higher level of enlightenment or they have achieved a equal level of technology.
 
One other possibility: An ecological niche that modern humans couldn't compete effectively in. Apparently African pygmy groups were very isolated genetically and could have eventually become a separate species given enough time. In their case, the separation was because a full-sized human just didn't do well in their habitat and pygmy people didn't do well outside it. Off-spring of a mixed couple wouldn't fit well in either world.

Neanderthals may have lasted as long as they did because of an ecological separation. Some theories say that they were specialized for ambush hunting in forested areas and that more open areas were always marginal habitat for them, partly because it required more mobility and those big, muscular bodies wore out quickly when Neanderthals were forced to move long distances to follow the game. That line of thought goes on to say that Neanderthals became extinct when the last ice age reduced the amount of their favored habitat to the point where their population was too low to be viable.

It's an interesting theory, with some interesting implications. Among them: modern humans were specialized open-country types, and developed weapons and tools designed to be light-weight so they could move around more easily, even though they took more energy to produce. When Neanderthals were forced into open country, they developed similar weapons and tools, but as mentioned, they weren't as good at open country living, and Neanderthal skeletons in probable open country almost invariably show signs of crippling arthritis.

The dates when Neanderthals became extinct in various places are in considerable dispute, but it seems that they may have had a last refuge in southern Spain, and may have survived there for thousands of years after they died out elsewhere, with some of the last survivors living near the Rock of Gibraltar, which brings up some cool images.

The 'end of their habitat killed them' theory says that our ancestors probably had little to do with the death of the Neanderthals. The worsening interglacial turned forest to open country which Neanderthals couldn't hand, but our ancestors were already adapted to. I'm a little skeptical about our ancestors being blameless. Even if open country wasn't prime Neanderthal habitat, it was territory they apparently used when there wasn't anything better available. Modern humans moving into that territory would have made Neanderthal adaptation to the ice age advances that much harder.

There may have been some luck factors involved in Neanderthal extinction. There are hints that Neanderthals in the Caucasus may have been wiped out locally by the climate aftermath of a large volcano eruption. There was also a rather nasty strato-volcano in Italy at about the time Neanderthals died out there, though I haven't seen it linked to the disappearance of Neanderthals in Italy.

Sicily was attached to the mainland during the peak of the last ice age, and I could see it being a last refuge of the Neanderthals in Italy--which would have made the Neolithic interesting there. Surviving Neanderthals versus early farmers. Not sure how that would work out. Probably the Neanderthals would have been wiped out.

You almost have to have continent-sized occupied areas to keep a separate species around through the waves of technology that swept out after the invention of agriculture. Most human groups didn't survive as distinct entities. What happened to all of the groups that lived in the way of the Chinese expansion, for example, or any one of several huge expansions in Eurasia?
 
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