Contact between Norse and Mesoamericans possible at all?

Well, I guess it's possible if not likely at all if an adventurous-minded norse sailor sails south enough along the coast of NA and through insane luck manage ends up somewhere near mesoamerica (maybe with the Maya) during what would be the Classical Period (pre-1000), weirder things have happened in history.

But what would be the consequences of such a meetup? Are the mesoamericans ravaged by diseases some 500 years earlier? Hypothethically. :)
 
"Insane luck" is kind of the operative term here. The distance from Vinland to the Mesoamerican region is a distance much greater and more treacherous than that from Iceland to Vinland, and even if a Norse expedition (one sailor with a ship probably would not have had the resources for such an endeavor) had seen a compelling economical need to head so far south, there's no reason to think it'd actually effect the state of matters in Mesoamerica very much.

The Norse wouldn't actually have much of use to lend the Maya (who by the 11th Century are in the Post-Classic period). The Maya region doesn't really have any sources of metal that would spur on greater metallurgy in the area. European diseases probably would not reach the Maya for the same reason they didn't reach the Skraelings - there were too few Norsemen to act as vectors, and the diseases hadn't reached Iceland yet by 1000 in any case.
 
That presupposes that there has to be a material/economic rationale for an expedition to occur. While there probably isn't a plausible rationale of that sort, every now and then there are people eccentric/adventurous enough to go exploring for its own sake. It wouldn't be excessively difficult to hug the coast, considering that the Norse could cross large parts of the Atlantic, so all you really need is someone eccentric enough and with the means, as well as the requisite "doesn't shipwreck' luck.

As to what could actually be achieved if the Norse found the Maya or whomever, the likely answer is "not much" for the reasons previously stated, unless the Norse somehow could transmit their ship building skills, or some derivative thereon, onto the natives. There are plenty of issues with this, most significantly the lack of iron working and perhaps (I simply don't know here) appropriate timber, but even just the concepts could be of use. The Caribbean is the best place in the America's for ships such as galleys to be usable; any maritime boost might be rather handy after a century or so. But then again there are good chances that nothing will materialize, even if the Norse decide to stay forever for whatever reason, due to the challenges with metal working and materials and local resources.
 
Theoretically yes, but practically it si very unlikely. Sounds like an interesting idea for a novel, Viking washes up on a distant shore with no way home, must brave a world of foreign plants, animals, and people.
 

katchen

Banned
HUG the coast is the operative term here. Once our venturesome norseman gets past the entrance to Chesapeake Bay, he and his huscarls will be fighting the Gulf Stream all the way to Cape Sable Florida. He will need to literally stay behind the barrier islands all the way from Cape Hatteras to the Florida Everglades to make any headway at all, though his ship will run across numerous trading opportunities for furs and the like along the way. Then somehow know to cross the Florida Strait to Cuba and then along the Cuba coast to Yucatan. And avoid becoming a sacrifice at the cenote at Chichen Itza.
Or a quicker way to travel might be up what is IOTL the St. Lawrence River to the Great Lakes and down the Illinois River to Cahokia where our intrepid Norse explorer can learn of the Maya. Then down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico and across 500 miles to Chichen Itza.
In both cases, one thing everyone seems to be forgetting is that the entire enterprise will go a lot better if the Norse can travel in ships large enough to carry horses, cattle and sheep. Livestock are the element that truly makes the Europeans and whatever they have desirable to Native Americans. And it is livestock that kicks off the Columbian Exchange early and turns it into the Lief Ericsson Exchange.
 
I think pre-1000 is really, really low probability. Contact with the mesoamericans is something I normally think of as happening after a stable Vinland colony, or a Vinland taking off.

A string of Norse settlements down the coast of North America, on islands and rivermouths, eventually some entrprising soul will encounter gold ornaments, and try to find the source/motherload.

The time from Vinland to Colombus is about the same as the time from Colombus to today. Plenty of time for things to happen.

Although what we might see is some tech transfer out pacing the Norse themselves. A revitalized Cahokia trading up and down the river, and crossing the Caribbean, maybe? Finding mesoamericans in retreat from horseriding barbarians from the north.
 
Great circle Bergen to Gibraltar is 2800 km. Great circle Gander to Havana will be 3800 km.
Then again, from Havana to Veracruz is certainly shorter than Gibraltar to Jerusalem or Constantinople. And the 2800 km Bergen-Gibraltar is great circle - there are lots of detours actually around England, Brittany, Spain... there is a detour on Gander-Havana as well, but not so impressive.

The Norse did reach Italy on their own ships by 859.

The question is, why would the Norse follow the Vinland coast south? Who would point them at riches of distant South? On Atlantic coast of Europe, the locals were well aware of Mediterranean countries of distant Rome and Constantinople, and coastwise trade also existed before Norse... how about Atlantic coast of America?

The Maya and Toltecs imported jades, quetzal feathers... Once they learn about the usefulness of iron knives etc., would these also be imported as exotic luxury goods? And what would the Maya be paying for iron tools that would attract the Norse and repay the costs of sailing the distance around North America?
 
Two words: Sunset Invasion:cool:

For those who doesn't get it: it's the name of a Crusader Kings II DLC which features Aztecs with gunpowder arrive at western Europe by longboats. It was meant to give western Europe a Mongol equivalent and is one of the few ASB scenarios ever done by Paradox.
 
Theoretically yes, but practically it si very unlikely. Sounds like an interesting idea for a novel, Viking washes up on a distant shore with no way home, must brave a world of foreign plants, animals, and people.

Unholy Crusade by Dennis Wheatley
 
Yeah, a one-shot voyage is unlikely. Gradually expanding coastal trade might work. Unfortunately, the timing is a little off for the easiest trade options. If corn-based farming had expanded to the coast of New England a little earlier, I could see the Norse trading textile and trinkets for corn. Iron goods were scarce enough in Greenland that they probably wouldn't get traded, unless/until the Norse were able to exploit Vinland iron.

I suppose a faster expansion of corn farming could be the POD, with availability of corn drawing in the Greenland Vikings. I did a scenario somewhat similar to that several years ago, though the Vikings played only a minor role. I had pre-corn farming in North America mature faster, which paved the way for corn to reach the coast while the Vikings were exploring. It led to trade with the Vikings, but not conquest or major Viking settlements.
 
Yeah, a one-shot voyage is unlikely. Gradually expanding coastal trade might work. Unfortunately, the timing is a little off for the easiest trade options. If corn-based farming had expanded to the coast of New England a little earlier, I could see the Norse trading textile and trinkets for corn.

This is a good point that I've never seen really discussed; the three sisters agricultural complex hadn't really taken off by the time the Norse had shown up.
 
If any Vikings from Greenland, or even Iceland, did manage such a feat, there's a very good chance we would never know about it. Of course if they did, and they found gold, I don't see how they could keep that a secret.
 
Yeah, a one-shot voyage is unlikely. Gradually expanding coastal trade might work. Unfortunately, the timing is a little off for the easiest trade options. If corn-based farming had expanded to the coast of New England a little earlier, I could see the Norse trading textile and trinkets for corn. Iron goods were scarce enough in Greenland that they probably wouldn't get traded, unless/until the Norse were able to exploit Vinland iron.

I suppose a faster expansion of corn farming could be the POD, with availability of corn drawing in the Greenland Vikings. I did a scenario somewhat similar to that several years ago, though the Vikings played only a minor role. I had pre-corn farming in North America mature faster, which paved the way for corn to reach the coast while the Vikings were exploring. It led to trade with the Vikings, but not conquest or major Viking settlements.

"The coast", or "New England"?

11th century Norse explorers are operating in Late Woodland period. If Three Sisters have not yet reached New England, could the Norse find maize to buy further south on the Atlantic coast, like Virginia or Georgia?

And I expect that the Norse would seek for bog iron in Vinland (and find). Greenland is short of firewood for smelting, Vinland has abundant wood.
 
What is the largest possible extent of Vinland. Also it's generally accepted they'd expand mainly hugging the coast, right? Do they displace the natives there?
 
Well, I guess it's possible if not likely at all if an adventurous-minded norse sailor sails south enough along the coast of NA and through insane luck manage ends up somewhere near mesoamerica (maybe with the Maya) during what would be the Classical Period (pre-1000), weirder things have happened in history.

But what would be the consequences of such a meetup? Are the mesoamericans ravaged by diseases some 500 years earlier? Hypothethically. :)

Have a look at my post here
 
What is the largest possible extent of Vinland. Also it's generally accepted they'd expand mainly hugging the coast, right?
They have 2 obvious directions to expand. Hugging the Atlantic coast southwards, or up St. Lawrence and then over portages (St. Lawrence, Niagara, Chicago). So the question is which of them becomes the main direction?
Do they displace the natives there?

Why would they?

IMO a small number of Norse traders could expand far beyond where they can displace natives. OTL Quebec had just 12 000 people in 1680-s, 25 000 by 1720 and still just 55 000 by 1754. These 12 000 Quebecois sent out La Salle expedition that got through all the way across North America to Louisiana, and by 1754 claimed the whole Mississippi basin as far as Forks of Ohio. They did not displace the natives there - they traded with them from a few small forts/trading posts scattered over immense area. They only did displace the natives from a small area in lower St. Lawrence valley.

OTL Greenland had 3000 souls by 1100; Iceland probably 20 000 by 1000. IMO, a Vinland of 20 000 Norse by 1200 or so could still be concentrated on part of Newfoundland (Iceland of 11th century was fully populated and overpopulated by 20 000...30 000 Norse, but Newfoundland is slightly bigger and much flatter and also warmer). Yet like the 17th...18th century French, the small colony of 11th...12th century Norse could have traded with Indians over immense areas and not displaced them there.

The 17th century French could not trade along Atlantic coast south of Acadia, because that part was taken by English, Dutch, Swedes and Spaniards. 11th century Norse are not going to deal with any other Europeans when sailing South.

Also, coastwise sailing is somewhat more efficient than crossing a continent by rivers - less portage crossings on the way.
 
It is possible, but highly unlikely. The big problem is why are the Norse exploring?

For people to spend such a long time travelling, there needs to be a profit motive. They still must earn a living and feed their families. They can't spend precious capital and time on a whim to explore just because.

The Age of Discovery was done because 1) Europeans wanted to find the source of valuable commodities, and 2) despite the huge costs involved, the crowns of Europe were willing to back explorers because of the potential return.

In travelling the North American coast, I don't see what the potential benefit is, and I don't see any fabulously rich patron supporting such a venture.

At best, it is an extremely slow process. Colony in Vinland established. Then as that colony reaches sufficient size, Norse fisherman follow the cod fisheries down the east coast. Then something has to prompt them to continue south and west among people even more primitive than they are who don't seem to have anything worth trading. At best, it happens after several decades or centuries of established Norse presence in Vinland. Most likely they won't reach Mesoamerica until shortly before OTL contact.
 
It is possible, but highly unlikely. The big problem is why are the Norse exploring?

For people to spend such a long time travelling, there needs to be a profit motive. They still must earn a living and feed their families. They can't spend precious capital and time on a whim to explore just because.

The Age of Discovery was done because 1) Europeans wanted to find the source of valuable commodities, and 2) despite the huge costs involved, the crowns of Europe were willing to back explorers because of the potential return.

In travelling the North American coast, I don't see what the potential benefit is, and I don't see any fabulously rich patron supporting such a venture.
Look at the comparison between East and West side of Atlantic.
Hugging the coast from Norway through Strait of Gibraltar to Italy, which the Norse DID accomplish by 859 - mere 66 years after Lindisfarne raid - is about the same distance as hugging the coast from Newfoundland through Strait of Florida to Yucatan.

Now, the obstacles are different. The incentives are also different.

A Norse raider following the East coast south past France and Spain was at a big danger, facing formidable perils. Namely, the coast was lined by illwishers. They were numerous, they were armed with iron weapons and warhorses, they were led by lords and kings. And though they might flee the Norse or buy them off, a Norse who let his guard down was in dire peril everywhere - an European lord stood to get renown and praise by surprising and slaughtering any lost or unwary Viking.

There was not much that the Norse might offer that Europeans might want. They could realize their loot in Europe or take employment as mercenaries against local enemies, but this was going to be a bad PR to any fence/employer. They DID eventually find valuable exports - salted cod, the local fishermen did not do equally good job preserving their catch - but this would be sometime in 13th century, and then carried by German ships, not Norse. Honest traders like Ottar did make their way to England, but not to Mediterranean.

The obstacles on the West coast are different. The Skraelings are less numerous, lacking domestic animals and metal tools. They are therefore also less well armed and less organized.

And importantly, the Norse HAVE a valuable trade good to offer. Iron tools.
At best, it is an extremely slow process. Colony in Vinland established. Then as that colony reaches sufficient size, Norse fisherman follow the cod fisheries down the east coast.
They wouldn´t. They would not run out of local cod so soon.
Then something has to prompt them to continue south and west among people even more primitive than they are who don't seem to have anything worth trading. At best, it happens after several decades or centuries of established Norse presence in Vinland.
Obvious trade good is maize. The Norse would certainly grow their own barley, oats and rye in Newfoundland... but they might find it very cost efficient to sail a knarr lightly loaded with small amount of iron tools to Hudson, Delaware or Chesapeake, and return heavily laden with maize. It might turn out to need less labour than growing the same amount of barley in Newfoundland.

Beyond the first maize growers.... Are there any low volume, high value goods (such as labour intensive products) that the Skraelings of Eastern Woodlands cultures would produce and that the Vinland Norse would value?
 
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