Constantapole 1453 a new ending/begining

trajen777

Banned
Hello Abdul - i look forward to your comments

Business has been hectic – but am flying all week so I hope to take advantage and write some longer sections this week.

Couple of things

When the new sultan took office there were massive revolts in the east which almost toppled the Ottomans. The east was ready for rebellion and wanted their independence from the Ottomans quite badly. There military was based strongly on the horse archer and shied away from the firearms which were becoming more popular. The Ottomans adapted to this weapon and my premise there collapse into squabbling groups, with the eastern Turkish groups (wide open spaces and more raiding strategy vs. set piece battles giving firearms little real value) independent they focused on there tied and true methods.

In the neat future well trained small armies were enormously successful against large units (European vs. other armies). The rebirth or Byzantium was focused:

    • Building firearm based armies which could be cheaply produced and required little training.
    • Copying the Slave Janissaries for elite troops
    • Building fortresses with firearm garrisons and thematic troops for defense in depth and small incremental territory gains. These Janissaries were used less for combat but to destroy the Turkish herd based economy.
    • Utilizing the captured siege train of the Ottomans to quickly overcome the western troops in Greece.
    • Using Alexander the Greats naval strategy vs. the Persians (denying them ports), this build there success against the West on deneying them ports or shelter (also the Italian wars)
    • Build up there fleet based upon firearms
    • Economic warfare against the Italian states to make war to costly to pursue. (Privateers) – While denying naval combat.

As to the loss of the Ottoman leader in 1453 – in many of the recent books (seems to be 2 – 3 I’ve read in the past year) they all point to the Sultan needing to be right at the breach to rally his wavering troops. Just as unlikely as a stray bullet hitting the Sultan is the unlikely (but actual happening) truth of a stray bullet hitting the Italian mercenary leader, just as the Turks were wavering.

I agree many things have to work to perfection in this scenario however if we were writing about 717 I presented the facts as :
1. Byzantine capital surrounded by 210,000 Arabs
2. Byz Fleet outnumbered 12 to 1
3. Byz army had suffered 40 years of defeat and lost 70 % of its empire
4. Secret weapon allows Byz to destroy Arab fleets
5. New Arab fleet arrives and ½ of fleet defects to Byz while secret weapon destroys the rest (Greek fire)
6. Arab army besieging Constantinople is decimated by the worst winter in 500 years
7. Bulgur army attacks Arabs and defeats them - and Byzantine army in Anatolia defeats Arab army in Anatolia for the first time in 40 years
8. Arab withdrawal passes an erupting underwater volcano which destroys 80% of remaining fleet on way back to Egypt.

Which POD is more realistic “mine in 1453” or the 717? The funny thing is the 717 is actual history.

But I welcome all thoughts and help with the POD – Many Thanks for all comments

 

trajen777

Banned
Does anyone have any good information on the Suez canal and when it went into disuse? Have several dates that conflict
 

trajen777

Banned
The Byzantines were at a point in time where their fortunes dictated more then just a survival mode. They could actually and realistically look forward for the first time to regain the lost provinces and rebuild there wealth. There fleet could hold there own against all but Venice, and in a raiding and denial of base strategy they could expect to win.
Their army was now well trained and had built a foundation that could use a combined arms strategy to fight any force they were likely to encounter. Economically they had developed a solid tax base protected from raiders and the Black sea trade was there monopoly. Diplomatically they had alienated the Turks from the Persians and the Mamaluks. They had created zones of trade with Venice. They had their northern base covered with alliances with the Rus and the Hungarians, with the Ottomans being a dependent.

There army began a slow careful advance towards Ankara three weeks after the Persians had attacked the Turks in the East. This delayed march had forced the Sultan of Rum to take 60 % of his army and march east through the Anatolian Plaines. The Venetians landed at the Sultans capital of Sidon and leveled the town.

The Mamaluks advanced on Tripoli and Antioch laying siege to both locations. The Sultans army was weak everywhere and strong nowhere as his forces rushed from one location to another to defend there empire. Ankara and Iconocm were captured by the Byzantines.

The Sultans forces decided to concentrate on the Byzantines. Leaving small forces to defend the Taurus mountain passes and hoping they could defeat the Byzantines before the besieged cities of the east had fallen to the Persians and Mamaluks.

IN a great battle east of the Taurus Mountains the Byzantines and Turks came to battle. Much like the Battle of Manzikert fought centuries before the Turks formed a crescent before the advancing Byzantines and kept away from there firepower. Attempting instead to kill there horses and isolates small units. For three days the battle or non battle raged. The Byzantines kept up the pressure but could not pin the Turks against a barrier. The Turks could not really hurt the Byzantines because of there massed firepower.

On the night of the 3rd day the Janissaries left ½ of there forces and made a wide sweep around the Turks. During the 4th day of battle the Turks continued to withdraw but their stock of horses were becoming seriously depleted by the gunfire of the Byzantines. At the same time the Turks had successfully destroyed several of the supply convoys supporting the Byzantines.

As the Turks with drew to wards a small flood swollen river they swung north to avoid being trapped against this obstacle. They were unconcerned since they had several hours to make this move. At that moment the Janissaries appeared. They dismounted and using there firearms and bows held the Turks repeated charges. 1500 Janissaries were killed holding the Turkish forces from moving north of the river. The Byzantine army began to drive in the flank guard of the Turks until the Turks were pressed against the river. Unable to maneuver only 10% of the Turks escaped across the river. Many of the Turkish cavalry were drowned or shot for sport by the Byzantines standing on the bank.

The remaining Turkish strong holds were quickly overcome in the next two years. However the Byzantines were also forced to go back to there slow recon quest of Anatolia as wandering tribes of Turks roamed the hinterland.

Edessa fell to the Persians and Tripoli and Antioch fell to the Mamaluks later that year. By treaty the Venice’s received additional trading rights and confirmed the treaty to carve up the Mamaluks territory in a future war. The Persians received all land north of Antioch to the Taurus Mountains. Negotiations were begun to align Persia, Byzantine, and Venice to split up the Mamaluk Empire.

IN the mean time trade had dropped for Venice as the western powers were importing spices across the Atlantic. The alliance with the Persians and Venice was signed in 1568 and the plans were laid for simultaneous attacks along the entire border beginning in March of 1569. The Persians would receive Damascus, Baghdad, Krek, and Mecca. Venice would receive 63% of the revenue from the capture of Suez as well as Alexandria. Byzantium would receive Damatti, and the eastern bank of the Nile, as well as Antioch to the Nile River including Jerusalem, Lebanon, and Palestine. Persia would also receive 10% of the Suez revenue for 5 years as well as import duties for its bases in the Red Sea.

The Persians placed three armies totaling 70,000 troops along the border. 15,000 would support the Byzantines in the costal invasions. 30,000 would drive to Baghdad and the remaining 24,000 would drive on Damascus. The Byzantines would land 20,000 troops at Acre cutting the Mamuluk forces north of this off. Another 25,000 troops would drive towards Antioch. Venice would land troops at Damatti to tie up Mamaluk troops with a further 15,000 Mercenaries supporting the Byzantine drive south.
 
Perry Castañeda have some interesting historical maps:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/history_europe.html

Although I don´t know if it could serve you to make maps, you can also search in the map thread in books, movies section of the forum to see if there is some interesting maps.

Respect to Suez Canal i don´t have probably more information that you, in wikipedia it is said that was put out of service in VIII century.
 
I don't suppose Constantine XI could go one-on-one with the Ottoman sultan in a battle royal, winner take all?

Other less used Byzantine resurrection scenarios:

1) Ottomans assume control of Constantinople through marriage
2) Varna won by Hungarians, Byzantium becomes Hungarian satellite but lasts another 50-100 years
3) Manual II has living son who picks up where Basil II left off
4) Ottoman civil fight lets Constantine XI pick up the pieces and try again
5) Ottomans irritate everyone around them, Byzantium works with many other nations to rout the Turks or at least contain them, Constantinople is Imperial for another 50-100 years.

Also, Anatolia and the Balkans are in chaos during this period, anyone who takes control of enough turf could become a substitute for the Ottomans if only on a smaller scale. For real kicks, work out a way for Matthias Corvinas to become Emperor and it could *easily* bring the Byzantines back into control of Western/Central Anatolia, Greece, Bulgaria, and maybe more. Greeks under Latin control might also take more readily to an Orthodox/Byzantine Emperor than a distant Latin one, giving Greeks the "home field advantage", especially in western Anatolia and Greece proper.

Just my $0.02
 

regiggii

Banned
They were a city state by then max...

...not that it would've hurt my feelings to see them retake, say around the straights, some of Thrace, Greece, etc. the Isles--hard to see'em coming back after decaying for so long, so badly.

Interesting premise though, sure. Rewind back to Michael Paleaogious*spelling* and see if they could precede better afterwards. Then you have a chance.
 

trajen777

Banned
1596 The story continues

1 Paragraph Recap


The Persians placed three armies totaling 70,000 troops along the border. 15,000 would support the Byzantines in the costal invasions. 30,000 would drive to Baghdad and the remaining 24,000 would drive on Damascus. The Byzantines would land 20,000 troops at Acre cutting the Mamuluk forces north of this off. Another 25,000 troops would drive towards Antioch. Venice would land troops at Damatti to tie up Mamaluk troops with a further 15,000 Mercenaries supporting the Byzantine drive south.

The POD continues ;;;
1596
The Persian troops launched a ferocious attack all along the border. The difficultly they found was there inability to successfully storm fortresses. The forts were strongly defended. In a 6 month siege of Damascus they were unable to gain any headway, in frustration they withdrew back to their start point. In the battle of Bagdad the Persians were again successful in the field but when they cam up against the forces in Bagdad they were unable to effectively assault the fortress. Their troops were forced to withdraw after three months. However these invasions although unsuccessful still gained tremendous booty and pinned down significant resources which allowed for the successful invasion of Antioch

The combined invasion of the Byzantines and Persians went much better. The successful pincer attacks cut the Mamaluks troops in half. In a tough battle the combined Byz/Persian troops suffered severe losses because of there inexperience of coordinating their forces but in the end won through superior numbers and the hard charging Heavy Cav of the Persians and Byzantines. Cut off from there forces to the South Antioch - Edessa and the adjoining territory surrendered after a 6 month siege.

The Byzantine forces captured Acre by surprise and succeeded in holding it for 3 months but the Mamaluk forces finally stormed the defenses and recaptured the City. The Byzantines suffered 8,000 causalities but the forces that the Mamulks committed were unable to be used in coming to the aid of Antioch or Edessa. The Byzantine forces withdraw from Dara and all cities east of Edessa, turning over garrison duty to the Persians.

Venice landing at Damatti went unrepentantly well. They landed there forces outside the city a week after the local forces with withdrawn to attack Acre. The instantaneous capture of the city leads the Venetian forces to consider holding the city. The main Mamaluk army approached the city and after camping in front of the city for two weeks the Venetians withdrew, having accomplished there objection of tying down forces and destroying vast quantities of supplies and seizing significant booty. ¾ of the Egyptian fleet had been destroyed in the capture of Damatti with most of it caught up on the river backs or tied to piers. 12,000 galley slaves were freed, which allowed the Venetians to speed away with 36 captured galleys.

So ended 1596 with the Egyptian fleet having been neutralized, the Byzantines in occupation of Edessa to Antioch, The Persians having captured much booty and the cities of Dara and surrounding area. The Egyptians had held Damascus and Bagdad, recaptured Damatti and Acre. The Egyptians called a Jhaid against both the Byzantines and the Venetians and approached both the German emperor and Genoa for alliances.

1597
 
Outstanding, thanks for returning to the timeline....

Can't wait for more

would love to see, some discussion of Roma people in the Neo Byzantine Empire.


orion
 
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