Considering a Korean TL

Sumeragi

Banned
I've been considering writing up a Korean-based TL. With Korea being my Motherland (Japan is Fatherland), I figured I should give the most screwed East Asian country some glory. So, I've got the following ideas:

1. Baekje-Nippon Union
2. Goryeo Empire
3. Joseon Empire

I admit that I will be very slow with updates, but then I'll probably be able to pump out a large post every 10 days or so. Any comments/questions/suggestions?
 

Finn

Joseon. I want to see how Korea competes with European powers, and this seems like the best time-frame for it.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
I'm leaning towards Joseon, mainly because it saves me from having to rely on fewer sources (Joseon has the Annals of the Joseon Dynasty) and also dealing with fewer butterflies. On a personal note, the POD allows me to but a dramatic comic in like the third post.
 

Kalvan

A Joseon Empire won't work unless:

A: Admiral Yi survives the Assassination attempt(possible), completes the conquest of Kyushu and the Ryukyus(also possible, but barely) and returns to confront King Seonjo and overthrow him, (No chance in hell, he was basically the Bellisarius of Korea) and re-forms the Hwarang order and invites Matteo Ricci or any of the other Jesuit scolar-missionaries (and pays close attention when they talk about administration or show of a useful Western invention) or

B: The legendary Dutch (or maybe he was Scottish or English) sailor who was responsible for sword forms 3 through 6 in the Dan Do section of the Muye Dobo Tongji takes up King Minjo's offer to help build up and train a modern Western army and Navy. He then settles down, marries a descendant of the Koryo or Koguryo dynasty (to give his children a descent from Dangun Wangeon), Destroys the Manchu invasion of Korea, leads a coup against the king when he sends him the yellow scarf when the king thinks the sailor is getting too popular and powerful. With the Manchus out of the picture for the time being, he's in a perfect position to capitalize on Li Zicheng.

Anything else would be ASB due to the cultural disdain King Saejo created for the millitary in order to prevent his overthrow the way he overthrew the Koryo dynasty. Korea simply doen't have the numbers to overcome millitary and political institutional weakness.

I say one of these PODs:

1. In the late fourth century B.C., Gojeoson manages to force a Status Quo Ante Bellum in it's war against the State of Yan. (Actually trouncing them would have woken the sleeping giant: even Chin and Chu would have rallied around the Zhou Emperor against an obvious powerful foreginer who dared to strike into the Middle Kingdom like that.) Subsequent Gojeoson kings introduce millitary reforms around Korea's greatest strength; mounted archery. (Like the stirrup, and bodkin arrows to pierce Chinese "Shan" scale armor) So that Korean forces run circles around (Liu) Han Wudi's Ji and sword squares and chariots. If they can win, or even make the victory Pyrric enough, the Xiong-Nu, Hoparu-Ho, and Donghu will break the borders and cause the Chinese Dark Ages three centuries early.

2. The Kingdom of Buryeo doesn't shatter into warring statlets. As Soon as Gongsun Yan or Gongsun Ren starts either one's rebellion, Buryeo can strike straight at the Fifty Commandries and destroy them. And since Cao Pi isn't the paragon of honor his fater actually was and the Lius of Shu made themselves to be, Korea won't be re-incorporated into the Middle Kingdom anytime soon. Then, when the Toba Turks invade the North of China...
 
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Sumeragi

Banned
I've already got the POD nailed down, which is connected to a famous legend that happened when Seonjo was retreating north from Hanseong. Moreover, Joseon did have the numbers until the Japanese invasions decimated the population, which led to it reaching its pre-war population 250 years later. Believe me, Korea during the Yuan and Japanese invasions was probably the most screwed region aside from Germany during the Thirty Years War, Poland during WW2, and the Irish famine.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
Thande said:
The first one sounds most interesting to me.
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It's also the hardest to write, since I'll have to cut through all the nationalist writings for that, never mind all the butterflies I have to deal with.

Also, Kalvan, notwithstanding your somewhat underestimation of Korea, your PODs are too far back for any writing to be done, especially for a minimal rewrite person like me.
 

tormsen

Kalvan said:
A: Admiral Yi survives the Assassination attempt(possible), completes the conquest of Kyushu and the Ryukyus(also possible, but barely) and returns to confront King Seonjo and overthrow him, (No chance in hell, he was basically the Bellisarius of Korea) and re-forms the Hwarang order and invites Matteo Ricci or any of the other Jesuit scolar-missionaries (and pays close attention when they talk about administration or show of a useful Western invention) or
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Complete? When did he start? Also, since when did Yi have any political ambitions, and how is he going to deal with the literati? Also, I don't think the Jesuits were necessarily any better at administration than the Joseon were.

B: The legendary Dutch (or maybe he was Scottish or English) sailor who was responsible for sword forms 3 through 6 in the Dan Do section of the Muye Dobo Tongji takes up King Minjo's offer to help build up and train a modern Western army and Navy. He then settles down, marries a descendant of the Koryo or Koguryo dynasty (to give his children a descent from Dangun Wangeon), Destroys the Manchu invasion of Korea, leads a coup against the king when he sends him the yellow scarf when the king thinks the sailor is getting too popular and powerful. With the Manchus out of the picture for the time being, he's in a perfect position to capitalize on Li Zicheng.
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Very convoluted and unlikely, IMO. One dude training an entire Western style army and navy? I know those shipwrecked Dutch were able to help produce Western style cannon for the Joseon OTL, but there's a limit to how much random sailors can do.

Anything else would be ASB due to the cultural disdain King Saejo created for the millitary in order to prevent his overthrow the way he overthrew the Koryo dynasty. Korea simply doen't have the numbers to overcome millitary and political institutional weakness.
Click to expand...

You're going to have to back that up with something, fella.
 

tormsen

Sumeragi said:
I've already got the POD nailed down, which is connected to a famous legend that happened when Seonjo was retreating north from Hanseong. Moreover, Joseon did have the numbers until the Japanese invasions decimated the population, which led to it reaching its pre-war population 250 years later. Believe me, Korea during the Yuan and Japanese invasions was probably the most screwed region aside from Germany during the Thirty Years War, Poland during WW2, and the Irish famine.
Click to expand...

So going for a Imjin PoD, probably a good move. Though I was going to suggest something with Crown Prince Sohyeon. He was experienced with dealing with Qing China, and he hoped to introduce Western science and ideas to Korea. His father probably had him murdered, but if he can avoid that then Korea is going to have better relations with the Qing and might avoid that whole "More Confucian and civilized than thou" thing. It will also lead to more contact with the West and improved science and technology. Catholicism itself might prove difficult to digest, as the whole Seohak vs. Donghak thing in OTL proved, but it would happen earlier and with royal sanction things might go differently.

I am skeptical about a Baekje-Nippon Union lasting all that long, and if it did it might have very wacky effects (I can imagine southern Korea being drawn into the Japanese cultural sphere, with a purely Korean culture in the north of the peninsula that stays involved in Manchuria...after time it might lead to cultures that were unrecognisable as Korean). Goryeo I think has promise, and I've never seen a Goryeo-based timeline, but as you mentioned they're more difficult due to records.

Anyway, looking forward to see what you come up with, I'm going to have to re-read some of my Imjin Waeran stuff to get myself back in the mindset.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Sumeragi said:
I've been considering writing up a Korean-based TL. With Korea being my Motherland (Japan is Fatherland), I figured I should give the most screwed East Asian country some glory. So, I've got the following ideas:

1. Baekje-Nippon Union
2. Goryeo Empire
3. Joseon Empire

I admit that I will be very slow with updates, but then I'll probably be able to pump out a large post every 10 days or so. Any comments/questions/suggestions?
Click to expand...


I actually plan a Joseon Empire scenario in one of my timelines.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
tormsen said:
So going for a Imjin PoD, probably a good move. Though I was going to suggest something with Crown Prince Sohyeon. He was experienced with dealing with Qing China, and he hoped to introduce Western science and ideas to Korea. His father probably had him murdered, but if he can avoid that then Korea is going to have better relations with the Qing and might avoid that whole "More Confucian and civilized than thou" thing. It will also lead to more contact with the West and improved science and technology. Catholicism itself might prove difficult to digest, as the whole Seohak vs. Donghak thing in OTL proved, but it would happen earlier and with royal sanction things might go differently.
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I wouldn't be changing who becomes the king and such, but things will compound slowly to reach the point where we have great changes.

tormsen said:
I am skeptical about a Baekje-Nippon Union lasting all that long, and if it did it might have very wacky effects (I can imagine southern Korea being drawn into the Japanese cultural sphere, with a purely Korean culture in the north of the peninsula that stays involved in Manchuria...after time it might lead to cultures that were unrecognisable as Korean).
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To tell the truth, Yamato culture was more an extension of Baekje than anything else. One could say that what is Japanese culture is southern Buyeo culture taking to its logical extreme, with the island environment thrown in.

tormsen said:
Goryeo I think has promise, and I've never seen a Goryeo-based timeline, but as you mentioned they're more difficult due to records.
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More important is the great difference in records concerning the POD (Japanese invasion). The idea came up from a Korean book (divided into two volumes) where the invasion is a success. I'll link you up to it later (I haven't read it personally myself).
 

Kalvan

tormsen said:
Complete? When did he start? Also, since when did Yi have any political ambitions, and how is he going to deal with the literati? Also, I don't think the Jesuits were necessarily any better at administration than the Joseon were.
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He didn't. That's the point. He had as much political ambition as Bellisarius did, which is to say, none whatsoever, even if he's potentially much better at ruling than the actual ruler.
Also, I mean that he would have left for Japan and conquered Kuyshu and the Ryukyus before settling with King Seonjo and the Royal Court. Any sooner would have marked him out as a mere usurper during a foreign invasion and crisis, and everyone who was anyone would have compared it to the fall of Hangzhou.

You're going to have to back that up with something, fella.
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The Joseon Dynasty flavor of Confucianism contained all the pitfalls of Sung Dynasty and later Neo-Confucianism (Such as an absolute disdain for anything that contradicts the Analects or concept of testing concrete ideas in the real world) but with none of the corrective mechanisms (like the Exam System to bring in new blood and provide a social saftey mechanism). It was so entrenched that except for the Imjin War every attempt to reform millitary and civil institutions to make them more accountable and make appointments based on merit and education rather than blood lineage (even/especially in purely academic areas) made the King and/or advisor who proposed these things have his memory be assassinated at the earliest convenient moment and damned by all subsequent generations of "respectable" historians until after World War II.

In short, it was neither the fish of China's exam based civil beaurocracy and (theoretically) the Qing Dynasty's Green Standard Army, nor the fowl of Japan's clan based feudalism with its (theoretical) noblesse oblige of defense of the weak and austerity in hard times. And the people of Joseon Dynasty Korea sufferered for it.
 
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Sumeragi

Banned
Kalvan said:
The Joseon Dynasty flavor of Confucianism contained all the pitfalls of Sung Dynasty and later Neo-Confucianism (Such as an absolute disdain for anything that contradicts the Analects or concept of testing concrete ideas in the real world) but with none of the corrective mechanisms (like the Exam System to bring in new blood and provide a social saftey mechanism).
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That's not true. Neo-Confucianism became dogmatic after the disastrous Japanese wars and the losses against the Manchu. In fact, Neo-Confucianism was being persecuted up until the wars destroyed the conservative Hungu families. By preventing the same string of events, I'll be having Joseon break out of the cycle of Neo-Confucianism that held it back in OTL.

Kalvan said:
It was so entrenched that except for the Imjin War every attempt to reform millitary and civil institutions to make them more accountable and make appointments based on merit and education rather than blood lineage (even/especially in purely academic areas) made the King and/or advisor who proposed these things have his memory be assassinated at the earliest convenient moment and damned by all subsequent generations of "respectable" historians until after World War II.
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Hyojong's reforms for his planned Northern Expedition don't count as reforms?
 

tormsen

Sumeragi said:
To tell the truth, Yamato culture was more an extension of Baekje than anything else. One could say that what is Japanese culture is southern Buyeo culture taking to its logical extreme, with the island environment thrown in.
Click to expand...

Oh, definitely, but if they stayed one polity then it would eventually come to the point where the Japanese tail was wagging the Korean dog, simply due to population and other factors.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Oh, definitely, but if they stayed one polity then it would eventually come to the point where the Japanese tail was wagging the Korean dog, simply due to population and other factors.
Click to expand...

An Izumo(which was connected to Silla) dominated Japan would be interesting actually.
 
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