Consequences of United Medieval Italy?

Basically what it says on the tin. What would the effects be short/long term if Italy is united in the Middle Ages. You can choose any scenario you like to add spice to the conversation, want Venice to rule Italy? Go for it, Byzantine Italy? Go for a try.

How would it affect trade, power, colonization, exploration etc?
 
Basically what it says on the tin. What would the effects be short/long term if Italy is united in the Middle Ages. You can choose any scenario you like to add spice to the conversation, want Venice to rule Italy? Go for it, Byzantine Italy? Go for a try.

How would it affect trade, power, colonization, exploration etc?

Depending on when and how this happens, I see it fostering a revival of Roman identity in the peninsula, much to the chagrin of Constantinople.
 
If it's a united Byzantine Italy, then I can see northern italy at least being a site for serious conflict still. It also will allow the Byzantines to project their power against the Franks, so interesting consequences there.
 
If it's a united Byzantine Italy, then I can see northern italy at least being a site for serious conflict still. It also will allow the Byzantines to project their power against the Franks, so interesting consequences there.

And that would have interesting effects for the papacy and schisms.
 
Anyone thought of a way for a Venetian Italy? Not sure they have the means or the desire to unite Italy.
 
Anyone thought of a way for a Venetian Italy? Not sure they have the means or the desire to unite Italy.
How would they get around the Pope and when would they unite specifically? I can see the Italians sending explorers to colonize the New World. Many of them were from the peninsula OTL. Although I doubt it would last long given their geographical position.
 
How would they get around the Pope and when would they unite specifically? I can see the Italians sending explorers to colonize the New World. Many of them were from the peninsula OTL. Although I doubt it would last long given their geographical position.

1400s, during/after the war(s) against Milan?
 
Anyone thought of a way for a Venetian Italy? Not sure they have the means or the desire to unite Italy.

Venice never had the right mindset to unify Italy and as a consequence they did not have the desire to do so.
To set in motion a process that would lead to an Italian unification led by the Serenissima it would be necessary to change quite early the form of government of the republic (only the inhabitants of Venice-the-city were citizens) and make a philosophical shift toward an acceptance that the inhabitants of different cities and towns (be them in Italy or not) could become full citizens.
Maybe a reasonable comparison could be with the Athens of classical times: Athens could (and did) win wars, was rich, had a colonial empire but could not unify Greece, and was never really interested in doing so.
 

Yuelang

Banned
Italy as Papal State on stimpacks... before protestant reformation of course...

Thus French, British, and Holy Roman Empire quickly settle their differences and declare an antipope somewhere deep... in Scotland. Ottoman Empire OR Eastern Romans (depends on the time) will back up this alliance

The Pope will get backup from Spain and Poland... and some disgruntled devout catholic nobles inside France, Britain, and Germany...

Who will win?
 
The pope is going to be the biggest obstacle to unification of Italy in the medieval period. Attempting to take Rome or the Papal States as a whole is going to warrent a response from someone else outside Italy as the Pope probably summons the Christian World to defend him, I'd imagine someone like France or Austria moving to attack as a result.

A Papal Italy is a thought, but as the Popes actual ability to project Power grows so does his opposition elsewhere in Europe likely seeing new Anti-Popes being created to oppose him or the early creation of Protestantism to oppose it as well.

As for the Colonial side of such a nation beyond 1500, depends on the nation that forms it. Anyone but the Pope I can see trying to create a empire probably based on India actually, up the Silk road to maintain trade links.

But if it was a Papal Italy colonizing, the target is quite obvious being the Middle East to secure the Holy City and elsewhere. I can see a very African based Empire emerging from that as a result making a Papal Italy directly opposed to the Ottomans as a result.
 
If history continued its march as "normal" I wonder how it would handle the collapsing Byzantine Empire to the Ottomans
 

Yuelang

Banned
If history continued its march as "normal" I wonder how it would handle the collapsing Byzantine Empire to the Ottomans

Obviously those "Orthodox" Greeks was FOLLOWING A HERESY. Now, the even greater evil, the Mohammedan Empire has overrun them as well as the Holy Cities...

And now, I, Pope XXXXXXX calls for the faithful toward a new Crusade... with Papal Italian Amy at the helm .
 
Obviously those "Orthodox" Greeks was FOLLOWING A HERESY. Now, the even greater evil, the Mohammedan Empire has overrun them as well as the Holy Cities...

And now, I, Pope XXXXXXX calls for the faithful toward a new Crusade... with Papal Italian Amy at the helm .

And still sacks Constantinople ;)
 

Deleted member 67076

Anyone thought of a way for a Venetian Italy? Not sure they have the means or the desire to unite Italy.

They wouldn't for the most part unless you get the class of landowners taking power in Venice much earlier but that's probably going to compromise the wealth Venice got from trading.
 
Venice's relationship with Italy would be more akin to say the Dutch relationship to Germany.

The first question is- what Italy? The kingdom of (Northern) Italy attached to the HRE would include everything but Venice north of Umbria. If this came out of an emperor crushing the pope in eg the Investiture controversy then the Papal States could be kept out of Romagna.

Say a more successful Hohenstaufen' Sicily. If they are driven from Germany by the Welfs and merge that kingdom with North Italy/Milan then that would maybe eventually be enough to get most of the peninsula.
A more successful Visconti could de facto unify all of Imperial Italy.

If thebBorgias stick around longer (or even uust keel Vesare from fallkng ill at the same time his fsther died), Cesare could perhaps consolidate his gains in Romagna, he was a very capable ruler. His sons could then try via dynastic politics to expand into e.g. Tuscany but the Italian States tended to come down on anyone that got too big...
 
The pope is going to be the biggest obstacle to unification of Italy in the medieval period. Attempting to take Rome or the Papal States as a whole is going to warrent a response from someone else outside Italy as the Pope probably summons the Christian World to defend him, I'd imagine someone like France or Austria moving to attack as a result.
Well, of course the obvious answer is to intervene early in the medieval period, when the Pope didn't really have any secular power, so that unified Italy probably ends up being his patron and it doesn't really make any sense to talk about him "summoning the Christian World to defend him" or having to take Rome or the Papal States.

Once his position is solidified and he has secular power, then he's going to act like any other secular prince, which means that he will oppose the unification of Italy by anyone other than him. But before that he doesn't really have the ability to.

Venice never had the right mindset to unify Italy and as a consequence they did not have the desire to do so.
To set in motion a process that would lead to an Italian unification led by the Serenissima it would be necessary to change quite early the form of government of the republic (only the inhabitants of Venice-the-city were citizens) and make a philosophical shift toward an acceptance that the inhabitants of different cities and towns (be them in Italy or not) could become full citizens.
So...like Rome? History repeating itself like that would be rather amusing...

Maybe a reasonable comparison could be with the Athens of classical times: Athens could (and did) win wars, was rich, had a colonial empire but could not unify Greece, and was never really interested in doing so.
As a counter-example, though, there's Rome, despite my statement above, which had a similar attitude about citizens for a long while yet conquered Italy anyways, with legal distinctions between citizens of Rome and inhabitants of other Italian cities persisting until the Social War. Surely if Athens somehow managed to reduce the other cities of Greece to being dependent allies (like most of the Delian League) or colonies (never mind that either is hugely implausible for the moment), then we would now regard it as having "conquered" Greece, even if it wasn't directly ruling most of the country?
 
Perhaps a dynastic unification of Naples, Sicily, Florence, Milan, Genoa, and Pisa following the Black Plague with the Papal States having a say as a sort of non-elected Senate?

What about the Italic League becoming a common market under a council of *very* autonomous city-states with a common Senate, currency, and foreign policy? Sort of a super-EU of its day?

Let Cesare Borgia live another 30 years and not get captured in Italy in 1502 - under the right circumstances he might unite much of the peninsula on his own.

If done right under Papal auspices starting with Innocent III or so Rome might still be the capital of Italy...
 
I think it's too ate at the time of the Borgias : Italy had already become the battlefield of foreign great powers.

You should start earlier.

POD could be Manfred or'Conradin be victorious over Charles of Anjou.
Then they would find an agreement with the Pope and France.

Then they profit from the papacy proving to Avignon and the Hundred years war to take control of most of central and north Italy.

The consequences would be huge since Italy was the richest and most dynamic area of western latin Europe.

The point is : what happens when cimes the time of discovering America and colonizing It. Of course, italians were prominent. But they had to work for atlantic powers.

So It would be bonus if you had Italy take control of the iberic peninsula.
With a few dynastic alliances (Manfred was allied with Aragon) and opportune death, plus à few victories and conquests, you could do so.

And you could basically reach a situation where, by 1500, Italy is the head of some kind of western roman empire around 100 BCE less its eastern and carthaginian possessions. It would hold Italy, Spain, Portugal, Provence and Languedoc, and the illyrian coast.
 
Gian Galeazzo Visconti living a tad more is my personal pet PoD. Have him live some ten-fifteen years more (fully possible), and you get all the lands owned by Milan in 1402, plus Florence, plus probably Genoa, who OTL bent the knee in 1409 (IIRC) and here doesn't really have a reason to do otherwise. It's not Italy yet, but if he has time to consolidate (and he was starting to do that - there are good reasons to argue that he wanted to stop after Florence) he has created an England. Not unified, but one hegemonic power who can stomp the others and achieve that, instead of the balance of power that eventually led to the Italian wars and foreign domination.
 
Well, of course the obvious answer is to intervene early in the medieval period, when the Pope didn't really have any secular power, so that unified Italy probably ends up being his patron and it doesn't really make any sense to talk about him "summoning the Christian World to defend him" or having to take Rome or the Papal States.

Once his position is solidified and he has secular power, then he's going to act like any other secular prince, which means that he will oppose the unification of Italy by anyone other than him. But before that he doesn't really have the ability to.
Quite obviously the sooner the pope is relegated to a mostly spiritual role the better it is.
The best bet in this respect would be the Lombards, provided that there are enough trouble on other fronts to butterfly away Pepin's invasion of Italy (quite a difficult task, though).
A late-Carolingian alternative would Louis, son of Lothair. In 850 was crowned co-emperor and given government of Italy, in 863 gained the crown of Provence too. He was reasonably successful in his wars against the Saracens in southern Italy. The problem is that he had only one daughter, and upon his death he named heir Carloman, son of Louis the German. Not only did this open the door for East Frankian ambitions in Italy, but his only daughter married Boso of Provence creating another potential claimant to the Italian crown. If he had sired a son, the Carolingian dynasty of Italy would be established (and possibly Provence too would be tied to Italy for good).

Soon after Louis there was another possibility, Berengar of Friuli who gained, lost, regained the crown of Italy and in 915 was also crowned emperor. There are not huge records about his reign, and he alternated successes to defeats.
In all honesty he had to face the brunt of the Magyar invasions in the late 9th century, and that was not an easy task (his defeat at the hands of Magyars at the battle of Brenta in 899 was the spark for a conspiracy of the major Italian feudataries who deposed him for a time). Give Berengar a good victory on the Brenta river and a lot of things may change. A possible difficulty might be the fact that he also sired only two daughters. However the younger married the marquis of Ivrea, of the powerful Anscarid house and had a son (Berengar II, who later became briefly king of Italy). IOTL the obvious attempt to forge an alliance with the Anscarids failed (and his daughter Gisela died in 913). If his Magyar problems had been successfully met, I would expect that his stronger position would make the alliance more successful, in particular if his grandson Berengar were to be named heir.

So...like Rome? History repeating itself like that would be rather amusing...


As a counter-example, though, there's Rome, despite my statement above, which had a similar attitude about citizens for a long while yet conquered Italy anyways, with legal distinctions between citizens of Rome and inhabitants of other Italian cities persisting until the Social War. Surely if Athens somehow managed to reduce the other cities of Greece to being dependent allies (like most of the Delian League) or colonies (never mind that either is hugely implausible for the moment), then we would now regard it as having "conquered" Greece, even if it wasn't directly ruling most of the country?

Well Rome too has some similarities with Venice, but also huge differences. Just to name a few, Rome had a bigger population base than Venice, was always a land power and with time managed to change substantially its relation with the neighboring peoples (at least after the Social Wars). Venice was mistress of Veneto, Eastern Lombardy and Friuli for 4 centuries but the issue of fully integrating the inhabitants of these areas (who spoke a very similar languages and had always been faithful to their oath to the Republic) was never discussed, much less considered an issue.
I would say that this is a behavior resembling the Athenian one, rather than the Roman.
 
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