Congress of Vienna & the Netherlands

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Nietzsche

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I've been wondering. Let's assume for a moment that the Dutch are not granted the southern lowlands, or are given only part of it. What territory might be on the table so as to make up it?
 
It depends on who gets the southern Netherlands. Does Austria keep it? Does it become a separate German state?

If part of it becomes Prussian, the house of Orange could keep an expanded Nassau state.
 
But if you're at Vienna, nobody wants it to go to Austria, France, or be independent. The idea was to create (along with Sardinia-Piedmont) buffer states against French aggression. Austria had shown time and time again that it saw Belgium as a millstone around its neck, giving it to France is viable in 182 or 1813, but not IMO in 1815, and an independent Belgium would be too weak to resist French aggression.
 
Interesting idea.
Let it be part of a bigger game. Let asume that the whole of Saxony was granted to Prusia and a large part of Poland to Russia, as this countries desired.
Austria, confronted with this fact, saw Prusia now becoming very large and wanted to reduce Prusia insize and take some of diplomatic 'revenge'. Austria was not intersted, like all other powers in an independent Belgium, under an Austian Prince, considering it as a too weak nation against France.
Let asume they agreed, partly, with the plan of William of Orange Nassau. By not granting him the crown of the Dutch Republic, Austrian Netherlands, Prince Bishopri of Liege, but also the Counties of Cleve, Julich and Berg and East Frisia Bentheimand Eemsland. For the loss of Nassau, Luxembuorg was added in personel union the this new United Netherlands.
After protest of Prusia, Berg and Cologne will go to Prussia and Hanover will be compensates by a strip of Holstein.
 
Berg would be a possible Netherlands gain as it had been united with Holland in Louis' kingdom. You'd have to compensate Prussia but the idea of a Prussian Netherlands was for a while on the table, swapping the ownership of the South from Austria.
 
An other option was roughly whole of Flanders, Brabant, Limbourg and than a line Maastricht, Julich, Dusseldorf, the other part of the Austrian Nehterlands would go to France.
 
As the future king William1 saw his country in 1813

quatre2.jpg
 
Berg would be a possible Netherlands gain as it had been united with Holland in Louis' kingdom. You'd have to compensate Prussia but the idea of a Prussian Netherlands was for a while on the table, swapping the ownership of the South from Austria.
Berg? Are you sure? East Frisia had been part of the kingdom of Holland, but not Berg as far as I know.

Anyway if Belgium isn't part of the Netherlands, East-Frisia is the area the Netherlands most likely would get. Assuming it would get any compensation at all. Actualy it all depends on what happens to Belgium. I could see Prussia getting part of it (Luxemburg, part of Liege, maybe parts of Limburg), but certainly not all of it. Austria could keep it, but they didn't want it. France wants it, but I doubt people want to give it to them (assuming a Vienna just like OTL's Vienna). I could in theory see Belgium being split up between Prussia, France and the Netherlands. It would cost France something though, possibly Corsica, maybe the Alsace, Although both have a big history within France (which Belgium/Wallonia doesn't have) and France probably wouldn't want to part with it. I don't think there would be a calling for an independent Belgium, but it is possible although unlikely.

Back to compensating the Netherlands. As mentioned East Frisia is a good chance, Which would mean lesser sea access to Hanover.
Maybe the western part of Guyana, the later British part of Guyana, assuming the British want to give it up.
Other parts could be other parts of bordering Germany, but the Netherlands doesn't realy have a good claim on (most of) it. Prussia (and Hannover) would have to agree to losing it. It might want to give up the areas around Cleves or Gelders, if it would gain Luxemburg. Certainly it would not give up the Rhineland as Willem I's megalomanic idea was.*
If Hanover would be compensated somehow, i could see the Netherlands in theory gain western Hanover, if Hanover was compensated somehow. So if Prussia would give Hanover some land (like part of Westphalia), Hanover could give East-Frisia, Bentheim, Lingen and those areas to the Netherlands. The Netherlands also gains Cleves and prussian Gueldres, while Prussia gains Luxemburg, and Eastern Liege.

Still I doubt the Netherlands would be compensated. They might get a land bridge towards Maastrich (basicly OTL Limburg) and to Zeelandic Flanders, but if the great powers don't want to give them Belgium, they just gain the territory of the old Republic.


*There might be the possibility of Prussia gaining Saxony and thus forsaking the Rhineland (something the Prussians suggested, but the others disagreed with). Thus the Netherlands could gain the Rhineland this way. The problem with this scenario though is that the ruler of Saxony has to be compensated and the Rhineland is the most oobvious choice, so too bad for the Netherlands. Another less likely option would be Saxony gaining Belgium and the Netherlands gaining the Rhineland, but I doubt they would do that.
 
*There might be the possibility of Prussia gaining Saxony and thus forsaking the Rhineland (something the Prussians suggested, but the others disagreed with). Thus the Netherlands could gain the Rhineland this way. The problem with this scenario though is that the ruler of Saxony has to be compensated and the Rhineland is the most oobvious choice, so too bad for the Netherlands. Another less likely option would be Saxony gaining Belgium and the Netherlands gaining the Rhineland, but I doubt they would do that.


Unless the Allies are even harder on Denmark that OTL, and it loses Holstein (and maybe Schlleswig as well) to Prussia, which as a result claims less territory on the Rhine..
 
As the future king William1 saw his country in 1813

Below the argument of the Prince of Orange why his future Kingdom would comprise of the Rhine land. Combine this with a compensation if Saxony would go to Prusia. (the ruler of Saxony does not need to be compensated since he was a bit too long alied with Napoleon)
East Frisia, Bentheim and Eemsland could also be a part of the new Netherlands if Hanover would remain the Duchy of Lauenburg and had some parts of Holstein at the expense of Denmark

"In 1813 the British Foreign Minister, Lord Castlereagh, arranged a meeting with the hereditary Prince Willem Frederik van Oranje-Nassau, which took place in London on November 4th. The Prince, who had only recently arrived in Britain after spending eighteen years in Germany, Poland and Austria, was informed that it was the Allies' desire to reinstall his House in the Netherlands, and on firmer foundations than it had enjoyed in the past. Furthermore, the territory of the old Dutch Republic was to be expanded in southern and eastern directions. This was everything the Prince had hoped for after the hardship he had experienced in the previous years [3] . He did not remain idle. Five days later, after consulting the Russian General von Pfuhl, he presented to the British government a memorandum in which he set out his view on the territorial aspects of the planned unification. In this he argued that the proposed enlargement of the old Republic should extend southward as far as the northern border of France, and further that it should also include the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and the German lands between the Meuse, Rhine and Mosel, as otherwise the barrier of fortresses along the new Franco-Netherlands border could still be outflanked by a French army and rendered useless. The Prince was also keen to point out that if the lands between the Meuse and the Rhine were to fall to the Prussians, the latter would be able to dominate and control trade with Switzerland and south-west Germany, something from which Britain would hardly benefit; if these lands were to fall to the Netherlands however, that would be a different matter. "
 
The following two proposals (1. and 2.) in the "Memorandum of Holland" give an outline to the situation in the low countries in the aftermath of Battle of Leipzig and the third was proposed by Willem Frederik of Orange-Nassau himself.
  1. The Northern Netherlands restored within its old borders and the Southern Netherlands would become a barrier state under the rule of a great power, like Austria.
  2. If the Southern Netherlands would stay (partially) French, the Northern Netherlands should be extended to the Nete River or probably the whole of Flanders. In this scenario also portions of Germany would become Dutch. Then the border would be the line Mechelen-Maastricht-Jülich-Cologne-Düsseldorf where it ends at the river Rhine.
  3. France within its old borders, the Northern Netherlands unified with the Southern Netherlands and all of German territories on the left bank of the Rhine and north of the Moselle and the old Duchy of Berg and the old Lands of Nassau on the right bank of the Rhine.
As the future king William1 saw his country in 1813

View attachment 193971

Is that map Willem Frederik of Orange-Nassau proposal? It is close but Berg and Nassau are not included however that is now much clearer. Does anyone have a map of the third proposal in full or would it have to be drawn?

Regards.
 

CalBear

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The following two proposals (1. and 2.) in the "Memorandum of Holland" give an outline to the situation in the low countries in the aftermath of Battle of Leipzig and the third was proposed by Willem Frederik of Orange-Nassau himself.
  1. The Northern Netherlands restored within its old borders and the Southern Netherlands would become a barrier state under the rule of a great power, like Austria.
  2. If the Southern Netherlands would stay (partially) French, the Northern Netherlands should be extended to the Nete River or probably the whole of Flanders. In this scenario also portions of Germany would become Dutch. Then the border would be the line Mechelen-Maastricht-Jülich-Cologne-Düsseldorf where it ends at the river Rhine.
  3. France within its old borders, the Northern Netherlands unified with the Southern Netherlands and all of German territories on the left bank of the Rhine and north of the Moselle and the old Duchy of Berg and the old Lands of Nassau on the right bank of the Rhine.


Is that map Willem Frederik of Orange-Nassau proposal? It is close but Berg and Nassau are not included however that is now much clearer. Does anyone have a map of the third proposal in full or would it have to be drawn?

Regards.
You had to click through a warning informing you this thread had been dead for a year.

Don't do that.
 
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