Congress of Vienna queries

IDK, if people like this it may as well become a Congress of Vienna mega-thread.

My query is: what was the reasoning behind giving Prussia a massive hunk of territory on the Rhine, effectively boosting its economic capability exponentially and laying the foundations for the unification of Germany under Prussia, when Austria was the power setting the terms for the Congress?
 

Redbeard

Banned
Austria did get her fair share: Tyrol, Salzburg, Illyria and Ragusa and various Habsburgers got a number of Italian Duchies and not at least Austria kept its recognition as a first rank power in Europe (i.e. the Universe). The HRE wasn't recreated, but a German Confederation was created with the Austrian Kaiser presiding. Not much more than a formality but neither was the HRE in its last 100 years. Seen from Austria a very important result was the Congress legitimising stiff reaction to and suppression of the modern nationalist trends in Europe until mid 19th century. Not at least Metternich was the personification of this.

I doubt Austria could have gotten any more out of the situation and Prussia had a good case being heavily supported by not at least UK and Russia.
 
My query is: what was the reasoning behind giving Prussia a massive hunk of territory on the Rhine
I suspect, though I can't remember if this was verbally expressed or not, that it was to give them an interest in keeping the French quiet. If the Rhine hadn't gone to Prussia, they might have been tempted to do a deal with the French to split it between them. As it was, they were now on the front line of any potential French expansionism- as were the Bavarians with the Palatine and the Netherlands with Belgium. Austria wasn't quite on the front line with Lombardy, but given the frequency with which they had fought against Napoleon it might have been assumed they (like the British) could be relied on in any future conflict.
 
Austria did get her fair share: Tyrol, Salzburg, Illyria and Ragusa and various Habsburgers got a number of Italian Duchies and not at least Austria kept its recognition as a first rank power in Europe (i.e. the Universe). The HRE wasn't recreated, but a German Confederation was created with the Austrian Kaiser presiding. Not much more than a formality but neither was the HRE in its last 100 years. Seen from Austria a very important result was the Congress legitimising stiff reaction to and suppression of the modern nationalist trends in Europe until mid 19th century. Not at least Metternich was the personification of this.

I doubt Austria could have gotten any more out of the situation and Prussia had a good case being heavily supported by not at least UK and Russia.

If i remember correctly Austria and the UK activly worked together to restrain the ambitions of Prussia and Russia. For example Prussia wanted to annex all of Saxony.

For another point with Tyrol, Salzburg, bigger part of Illyria and Lombardia Austria only got back what he already owned pre French revolution and Napoleon. Compared to pre Revolution Austria lost Belgium and gained Venice. Prussia expanded considerably compared to before the revolution.
 
Simple.

Prussia wanted the full of Saxony and the return of his polish territories.

Russia, in exchange for keeping those Polish lands, supported Prussia in gaining Saxony and whatever compensation they wanted.

GB was happy enough to give land to Prussia (At one point they considered the idea of a Prussian lead North German federation because they thought that that way they could be sure that Germany would be in good, british allied, hands) but they were afraid of Russia becoming too powerful so their position was mixed. On one side they thought it was better for them to have a powerful Prussia (At the time a very very very weak naval power and so they weren't a threat to GB) to counter France but they didn't want a more powerful Russia.

France was against the annexation of Saxony so they went against Prussia-Russia.

Austria, afraid of the developments, sided with France in refusing the Prussian demands.

As a compromise Prussia gained most of Saxony (40%), kept Posen, gained Danzing and Westphalia. The last one was because no one other than France and Austria were willing to see France keep "it's natural borders". The natural border was considered the Rhine but GB wasn't willing to accept France on both banks of the Rhine, the Russian Emperor thought the French king an idiot and wasn't willing to have France become a threat again and so they gave that land to the only country they thought they could trust Prussia. GB couldn't give those lands to Hannover (the others would oppose) and it was too much of a threat to leave those lands divided again so Prussia gained it in compensation for most of it's polish territories.

This of course included other negotiations.

Russia gained poland and was allowed to keep finland (sweden gained Norway in return) but they couldn't add those lands into the Russians Empire (personal union was what the congress demanded).

The southern netherlands (Belgium) were joined with the Netherlands and in exchange for losing nassau (to prussia) they won Luxembourg.

Swedish Pomerania was passed to Denmark that in turned gave it to Prussia in exchange for Saxe-Lauenburg.

Hannover gained Munster and East Frisia (formerly Prussian land) in exchange Lauenburg went to Denmark.

Austria regained their lands, gained northern italy and Tarnopol in exchange they lost southern netherlands.

As you can see this was a huge confusion.

If you want to read more about this I remember a biography of Metternich that had some very important parts on the Congress and the why's of things (the author was French and had a clear bias against Russia and Prussia but the book was good overall).
 
Why not make the disconnected western Prussian territories independent and keep them as the linchpin of the German Confederation then? Then Austria and Prussia are bound to protect them and one can attack the other if the other makes a move alongside France against this hypothetical Rhenish Kingdom. Thus calling in the entire Concert of Europe.
 
Austria did get her fair share: Tyrol, Salzburg, Illyria and Ragusa and various Habsburgers got a number of Italian Duchies and not at least Austria kept its recognition as a first rank power in Europe (i.e. the Universe). The HRE wasn't recreated, but a German Confederation was created with the Austrian Kaiser presiding. Not much more than a formality but neither was the HRE in its last 100 years. Seen from Austria a very important result was the Congress legitimising stiff reaction to and suppression of the modern nationalist trends in Europe until mid 19th century. Not at least Metternich was the personification of this.

I doubt Austria could have gotten any more out of the situation and Prussia had a good case being heavily supported by not at least UK and Russia.


The key to it all was Poland.

The Duchy of Warsaw was in Russian hands, and the Tsar was determined to keep all or most of it. So its former owners, Prussia and Austria, had to be compensated on their western sides. Since the south German states had defected in good time, and so finished the war on the winning side, their territory was not available for distribution, which effectively meant that Austria got her compensation in Italy, and Prussia in north Germany.

BTW, the industrial development of the Ruhr was still generations in the future, so nobody then realised the accession of strength that Prussia would later gain from it. As far as anyone knew in 1815, she was still the smallest and weakest of the great powers .
 
BTW, the industrial development of the Ruhr was still generations in the future, so nobody then realised the accession of strength she would later gain from it. As far as anyone knew in 1815, she was still the smallest and weakest of the great powers .

Incidentally, when did people realize the potential of the Ruhr? Weren't there coal mines there even before the Napoleonic Wars?
 
Incidentally, when did people realize the potential of the Ruhr? Weren't there coal mines there even before the Napoleonic Wars?

There may have been coal mines, but it didn't become the industrial colossus we remember until about the 1880s. Even in 1870-1, Germany was little if any more industrialised than France.
 
Another question. Why did they give Prussia so much land in the west? Couldn't they just have given it the Grand Duchy of the Lower Rhine and left it at that?


They were guarding against a French revival and didn't want a lot of weak states in that area. Also the Tsar had promised Prussia (and Austria) new territories to compensate for their former Polish lands, so that they had the same territorial extent as before Napoleon came along.
 
Last edited:
They were guarding against a French revival and didn't want a lot of weak states in that area. Als the Tsar had promised Prussia (and Austria) new territories to compensate for their former Polish lands, so that they had the same territorial extent as before Napoleon came along.

Also don't forget. Prussia already had quite some lands in the west. All that happened during Vienna was more or less connecting them.
 
I've asked this before to a result of different answers, but what would have had to happen at Vienna for a restoration of the Empire - or is that basically impossible requiring a pre-Congress PoD? I figure Prussia probably wouldn't go for it - would it require them to be humbled during the latter portion of the war but the allies still win?
 
Top