Congress of Vienna: No partification of Saxony

Anderman

Donor
WI the Kingdom of Saxony dropped Nappy fast enough and Prussia will not gain 2/5 of Saxony at Vienna.
What will Prussia get at Vienna instead and what will happened to the power struggle in the German Confederation until 1866?
 
WI the Kingdom of Saxony dropped Nappy fast enough and Prussia will not gain 2/5 of Saxony at Vienna.
What will Prussia get at Vienna instead and what will happened to the power struggle in the German Confederation until 1866?

Anderman

Well initially I believe that Prussia wanted all of Saxony and when it only got part of it then that was an argument for it getting the Rhineland. Alternatively I have also heard that was part of the intention from the start, leading to the so called 'watch on the Rhine', i.e. providing a more powerful check on future French aggression in that region.

If Saxony manages to survive in full then Prussia will want extra territory somewhere else. More of Poland isn't practical as that would clash with Russian aims so it would have to be some more of Germany but not sure what. Possibly if Bavaria had stayed with Napoleon longer but then that state is Catholic and so close to the Austrian core territories. In one TL I was playing about with Prussia got what's now Belgium. Also Catholic and distinctly non-German but suitably placed geographically and highly developed industrially. You might then however have to find some other territory for the Netherlands or have it frustrated possibly. Furthermore, presuming Prussia got it's OTL Rhineland territories that would mean it largely encircles the Netherlands which could cause problems for the latter.

The only other area of suitable size I can think of is Hanover but that would anger Britain so doubt if that would be practical.

Steve
 
You might then however have to find some other territory for the Netherlands or have it frustrated possibly. Furthermore, presuming Prussia got it's OTL Rhineland territories that would mean it largely encircles the Netherlands which could cause problems for the latter.

Steve

How about East Frisia? And I don't think the Netherlands would have a problem with the Prussians encircling them since the Hohenzollern's had a better claim to the House of Orange then the Dutch branch did in OTL.
 
Hanover IS plausible

Prussia could've been compensated with Hanover. Though the Electors of Hanover were also Kings of Great Britain, the two states were NOT in a form of Dual Monarchy such as would exist in the Austrian Empire later.
 

Anderman

Donor
My first thought was that Prussia at least would get the bavarain parts of Palatinate, a complete watch of france so to speak :p
 
I think that Luxemburg is a reasonable option. OTL both Prussia and the Netherlands (or at least the future Dutch king Willem I) wanted it and thus the strange situation in Luxemburg was created: the personal union with the Netherlands, while Prussians were responsible for the defenses.
 
Luxemburg is a possibility, but it's probably not enough in comparison to 2/5 of Saxony. Adding Munster and East-Frisia, however, would be enough.

Hannover is a difficult question. I don't know enough about the congress of Vienna, but I assume the British stand is not that clear. The parliament likely wouldn't mind if the king looses Hannover. The king, on the other side, will.



Another idea: Carving out Alsace or Alsace-Lorraine or Alsace and Lorraine as new princedoms within the German confederation may be used to compensate ruling princes within Germany who would in turn loose their lands to Prussia.
 
I was not only thinking of what is now the country of Luxemburg, but also the Belgian province and possibly part of Liege. It might still not be enough.

Well, if you add the Belgian province of Luxemburg and Liege it should be comparable in population and in economic value of the lands (on the long-term, with mining and steel coming, it will be far more valuable). Still, Saxony being closer and protestant the Prussians might still prefer Saxony or parts thereof. I think adding Dutch Limburg and parts of Lorraine should do the trick, though.

If you add Alsace as an independent princedom in the German confederation this should make a very interesting timeline...
 
Well, if you add the Belgian province of Luxemburg and Liege it should be comparable in population and in economic value of the lands (on the long-term, with mining and steel coming, it will be far more valuable). Still, Saxony being closer and protestant the Prussians might still prefer Saxony or parts thereof. I think adding Dutch Limburg and parts of Lorraine should do the trick, though.
As a large part of Dutch Limburg had been Dutch already, I don't think the Prussians would get it, or at least only the parts that used to be Prussian.
 
As a large part of Dutch Limburg had been Dutch already, I don't think the Prussians would get it, or at least only the parts that used to be Prussian.

But the Netherlands were re-established from scratch, whereas in Germany most states already existed even under the Napoleonic regime and "just" had to negotiate new borders.

I'm not sure though whether the congress already decided in favour of establishing the Netherlands in certain boundaries and the fate of Saxony and Belgium were decided thereafter. Even then, though, the possibility of exchanging, say, Dutch Limburg against Antwerp is still possible.
 
All these ideas would make very different situations for Prussia and give a lot of butterflies to think of.

Although I liked most ideas in this thread so far quite well, I would like to toss in another one. If Bavaria gets off a bit worse, the Hohenzollern might get parts of Franconia (esp. Bayreuth/Ansbach) where they had a strong position already prior to 1789.
 
All these ideas would make very different situations for Prussia and give a lot of butterflies to think of.

Although I liked most ideas in this thread so far quite well, I would like to toss in another one. If Bavaria gets off a bit worse, the Hohenzollern might get parts of Franconia (esp. Bayreuth/Ansbach) where they had a strong position already prior to 1789.

Good point. One might also strengthen Bavarian Palatinate - adding Trier or Hanau for example - and on the other side giving Franconia to the Prussians.
 
Maybe the Danes do even worse than OTL, and Prussia gets Holstein.

She might also get Luxemburg, as already suggested, and maybe Belgium up to about the Meuse, with Liege and Namur.
 
Maybe the Danes do even worse than OTL, and Prussia gets Holstein.

I thought about that as well, yet the Danes were already out in january 1814 in the treaty of Kiel, whereas the congress began in september 1814.

It would be a nice possibility, but that requires the Danes to do better before defeated (unlikely) or the treatment of Denmark subject to later decisions.
 
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