Congress of Vienna: Different fate for the Rhineland?

What if at the Congress of Vienna the Rhineland, which IOTL was given to Prussiato act as a buffer against France, instead had a different future? Perhaps given to another German country like Austria or Saxony or Bavaria, or perhaps given independence as its own state? Or even reverting to a consolidated version of how things were pre-French Revolution, where smaller states like Julich-Cleves-Berg and Trier controlled it?

How might this effect the balance of power in Europe? How about the rise of pan-German nationalism and the move towards unification?
 

Lusitania

Donor
I thought that a younger prince of Prussia could of been given Prussian lands along Rhine.

This would of been a compromise between Prussian and Austrian demands. A country that together with Bavaria and other western German nations to resist both French, Austrian and Prussian demands.

Ultimately unite with the western Germans to create a united Germany excluding both Austria and Prussia.
 
I thought that a younger prince of Prussia could of been given Prussian lands along Rhine.

This would of been a compromise between Prussian and Austrian demands. A country that together with Bavaria and other western German nations to resist both French, Austrian and Prussian demands.

Ultimately unite with the western Germans to create a united Germany excluding both Austria and Prussia.

A Sigmarigen, perhaps? The Rhineland is fairly Catholic at the time, and its quite possible that the tiny exclave of that scion of the family could be traded up for. Bonus for Austria; the Sigmerigens aren't on the line of succession to the Prussian throne which would head off that potential conflict down the line (A key feature of Vienna being to remove as many pressure points that might trigger a war between The Great Powers as possible). I imagine it'd be taken better than a proposal to give the land to the Wettins in exchange for Saxony (Given they were one of the first to align with and the last to defect from the Napoleonic cause, there might be some scruples about weather or not they might end up being too pro-French to do their duty as buffer against future French power projection into the Germanies)
 

Lusitania

Donor
A Sigmarigen, perhaps? The Rhineland is fairly Catholic at the time, and its quite possible that the tiny exclave of that scion of the family could be traded up for. Bonus for Austria; the Sigmerigens aren't on the line of succession to the Prussian throne which would head off that potential conflict down the line (A key feature of Vienna being to remove as many pressure points that might trigger a war between The Great Powers as possible). I imagine it'd be taken better than a proposal to give the land to the Wettins in exchange for Saxony (Given they were one of the first to align with and the last to defect from the Napoleonic cause, there might be some scruples about weather or not they might end up being too pro-French to do their duty as buffer against future French power projection into the Germanies)
I was actually thinking one of the younger royal prince. Convert to catholic and marry some Austrian princess.
 
I was actually thinking one of the younger royal prince. Convert to catholic and marry some Austrian princess.

I'm not sure that works very well. Certainly, you'd want to insure the Rhineland is balanced between Vienna and Prussia, but your proposal is more "Allied with Both" rather than just "Warm but Neutral", which is just asking for a problem for whomever's put in charge when Austria and Prussia have a dispute and both expect the Rhineland to actively side with them rather than be a moderating balancing force. If Prussia and Austria weren't constant rivals, then maybe this would work, but that's not in the cards with a POD of 1815
 
An old encyclopedia I read stated that the Rhineland (having been French for 20 years) had been quite alienated from the rest of Germany and wasn't that much of a win for Prussia.
 
An old encyclopedia I read stated that the Rhineland (having been French for 20 years) had been quite alienated from the rest of Germany and wasn't that much of a win for Prussia.

Not really, certainly some elements of the liberal, urban intelligentsia weren't delighted to be part of reactionary Prussia but there was little nostalgia for being part of France, a liberal Germany on the other hand....
 
Not really, certainly some elements of the liberal, urban intelligentsia weren't delighted to be part of reactionary Prussia but there was little nostalgia for being part of France, a liberal Germany on the other hand....

And the more conservative Catholic elements would probably have preferred Austria (or the King of Saxony or Bavaria) to Prussia.
 
I find a German confederation, similar to the HRE comprising the Rhineland and nearby independent German states interesting. It's a massive FU to Prussia, but it would balance Germany out. I think unification is inevitable. Most likely under Prussia, but with a strong independent German confederation, maybe something more similar to the 1848 proposal.
 
I can think of two bids from OTL to fiddle with the outcome of the Rhineland.

The first is the Polish-Saxon Crisis. Prussia and Russia collaborated with the intention of Russia getting all or most of Poland (which I believe meant a Russian Posen), Prussia would get all of Saxony, and the Rhineland would become an independent Kingdom under the Wettins.
  • A Wettin Rhineland's big issue (aside from Austria thinking Russia would be too powerful with Posen) was that the Congress wanted a watchdog on the Rhine against France. A Rhenish polity would not have been strong enough. Maybe Rhineland-Luxembourg could do the trick.

The second is the Dutch getting the Northern Rhineland. The King of the Netherlands proposed the Dutch getting the Northern Rhineland. I think under this scenario the Bavarian Palatinate was to be expanded to the Moselle River.
 
Not really, certainly some elements of the liberal, urban intelligentsia weren't delighted to be part of reactionary Prussia but there was little nostalgia for being part of France, a liberal Germany on the other hand....

The folks who'd make up Frankfurt? Yah... Metternich would agree to allowing the Liberals to gain political power only if compelled at gunpoint, and those guns are mostly in hands loyal to Vienna and Brandenburg. The Liberal Intelligencia was a very narrow strata of German society, and to get the type of liberal society they want they have to balance on a very narrow tightrope of wielding the threat of popular violence to convince the upper class to ally with them without actually triggering working class economic demands.

And the more conservative Catholic elements would probably have preferred Austria (or the King of Saxony or Bavaria) to Prussia.

What they want is less important than Great Power interests in terms of what's decided at Versailles. Whatever settlement is reached has to create a climate where nobody will be tempted to invite French influence and military power in to one up their rivals. Prussia is going to have to be given some interest in the area French resistance would threaten
 
I can think of two bids from OTL to fiddle with the outcome of the Rhineland.

The first is the Polish-Saxon Crisis. Prussia and Russia collaborated with the intention of Russia getting all or most of Poland (which I believe meant a Russian Posen), Prussia would get all of Saxony, and the Rhineland would become an independent Kingdom under the Wettins.
  • A Wettin Rhineland's big issue (aside from Austria thinking Russia would be too powerful with Posen) was that the Congress wanted a watchdog on the Rhine against France. A Rhenish polity would not have been strong enough. Maybe Rhineland-Luxembourg could do the trick.

The second is the Dutch getting the Northern Rhineland. The King of the Netherlands proposed the Dutch getting the Northern Rhineland. I think under this scenario the Bavarian Palatinate was to be expanded to the Moselle River.

This is an interesting one. I remember on another thread some discussion of having the Wettins of Saxony receiving the Rhineland as a buffer state to compensate for the loss of their main holdings, and it's interesting seeing it come up again.

A mega-Netherlands is an interesting proposition. If the Bavarian Palatinate receives the right bank of the Moselle, the Netherlands receives Cologne, Bonn, Aachen, as well as a land link to Luxembourg. Koblenz, which lies at the confluence of the Moselle and Rhine on both banks, might be given to one party rather than split. And as for the other Rhineland territories on the right bank like Dusseldorf, if they go to the Netherlands as well, that would certainly make for a powerful buffer territory that has economic potential to leverage multiple sides. That said, the Dutch are mostly Protestant so there lies some conflict with that plan. If the Catholics revolt as they did in Belgium, we could see an uprising not just in Wallonia and Flanders but also in the Rhine as well. Mega-Belgium, anyone?
 
An old encyclopedia I read stated that the Rhineland (having been French for 20 years) had been quite alienated from the rest of Germany and wasn't that much of a win for Prussia.
It was a bit more complicated then that but in general German nationalism came prity late to the rhineland and combined whith the fact that the business class being much more in fafor of the French civil code compared to the Prussian law code ment that in general there was a lot of support for France in this area (one of the reasons I think the rhinland would have sated as part of France had they one, they only started to agitate at the end of the war and no part of France wasn't at the time) it was to the point that Prussia had to have ( a little motivied) french code for the rhinland and when Prussia tried to change it to be more in line whith the rest of Prussia is when the area in general moved to support liberal agitation and is when German nationalism took hold ( it seems after reading several 1848 threads that people here don't realise how much liberalism and nationalism (inspired by France naturaly) where interlinked, if you where liberal the you where assumed to be nationalist, if you where conservative you where assumed anti-nationalist, it wasn't until the next generation of conservatives that had lived thoe 1848 that conservatives co-oped the nationalist movement.
 
AIUI, the Dutch king never wanted Belgium but instead a land-corridor to join up the Netherlands and the duchy of Nassau.

The Prussians never wanted the Rhineland, but the allies foisted it on them to make up the quota. Belgium wanted an Austrian archduke but Vienna refused.
 
Give Prussia the rest of Saxony, and give the Saxon king the Rhineland. There may be less impetus for Prussia to pursue German unification if more of its land is continuous after Vienna.
 
It was a bit more complicated then that but in general German nationalism came prity late to the rhineland and combined whith the fact that the business class being much more in fafor of the French civil code compared to the Prussian law code ment that in general there was a lot of support for France in this area (one of the reasons I think the rhinland would have sated as part of France had they one, they only started to agitate at the end of the war and no part of France wasn't at the time) it was to the point that Prussia had to have ( a little motivied) french code for the rhinland and when Prussia tried to change it to be more in line whith the rest of Prussia is when the area in general moved to support liberal agitation and is when German nationalism took hold ( it seems after reading several 1848 threads that people here don't realise how much liberalism and nationalism (inspired by France naturaly) where interlinked, if you where liberal the you where assumed to be nationalist, if you where conservative you where assumed anti-nationalist, it wasn't until the next generation of conservatives that had lived thoe 1848 that conservatives co-oped the nationalist movement.


That was Bismarck's great discovery. He was among the first to cotton on that liberal nationalists could be split between those who were more liberal than nationalist and those who were more nationalist than liberal. The latter would work with a conservative regime if their nationalist aims were satisfied.
 
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