Congress of Vienna ATL ideas

Which of these ideas is the best?

  • Austrian Netherlands remains Austrian

    Votes: 18 17.8%

  • Poland resurrected

    Votes: 37 36.6%

  • Prussian Saxony

    Votes: 27 26.7%

  • Holy Roman Empire re-formed

    Votes: 14 13.9%

  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 5 5.0%
  • Total voters
    101

Galba Otho Vitelius

Some ideas for what became the German Confederation:

1. What became Belgium gets the territories of the former Electorate of Trier west of the Rhine (essentially the Moselle Valley) a neighboring smaller principality, to give "Belgium" more strategic depth. IOTL this territory went to Prussia.

2. Hanover swaps its southern part with Prussia in exchange for some territory in the northwest of what became the Prussian Rhine province, enabling Prussia to be joined to s reduced Rhine province.

3. The Netherlands picks up Cleves and what had been another small principality so that Luxembourg, Limburg, and the approaches to Antwerp can go to "Belgium".

4. France gets the Saarland and some territory between the Saar and the Rhine, as partial compensation for giving up Calais, Artois, Picardy, and the fortress of Sedan to "Belgium". "Belgium" now has twice the territory as IOTL Belgium and has some strategic depth, it can be easily reinforced by sea or from Germany if France invades.

5. The rest of the former Kingdom of Westphalia, pretty much the territories of the former Electorate of Cologne, go to Prussia, but this Rhine province is about half the size of the IOTL one. However, it is actually connected to Prussia so the Hohenzollerns might accept this. Prussian control of the Moselle and middle Rhine is not needed since "Belgium" is a much stronger counter to France.

6. Try to consolidate all the micro-principalities in central Germany into a kingdom or Duchy, it can be called "Franconia", buying out the claims of their previous ruling families or making them subordinate counts as needed. This provides more of a counter to both Prussia and France.

7. Southern Germany and eastern Germany (east of the Elbe) are as IOTL.

As I noted earlier, I like the idea of translating the Savoyards into "Belgium" which would put their former Italian territories at disposal to be divided between France and Austria or whatever Italian puppet state we are setting up in Italy.
 

Nivek

Galba Otho Vitelius said:
2. Hanover swaps its southern part with Prussia in exchange for some territory in the northwest of what became the Prussian Rhine province, enabling Prussia to be joined to s reduced Rhine province.

3. The Netherlands picks up Cleves and what had been another small principality so that Luxembourg, Limburg, and the approaches to Antwerp can go to "Belgium".

4. France gets the Saarland and some territory between the Saar and the Rhine, as partial compensation for giving up Calais, Artois, Picardy, and the fortress of Sedan to "Belgium". "Belgium" now has twice the territory as IOTL Belgium and has some strategic depth, it can be easily reinforced by sea or from Germany if France invades.
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ASB, Prussia, Saxony and other would not take it, they wanted a defense of the rhine, not an enlagred state and france so close
 

Wendell

Nivek said:
I'm sure did, Dutch got part of rhineland and that was the first step for the 'three emperor' setting of that TL german empire(with the dutch and belgium as part of germany)
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I would not have them end up as part of Germany.
 
Pralaya

Pralaya

What some tend to forget is that Prussia and its ruling house had many extensive possessions in the Rhineland prior to the Coalition Wars and that since at least the 17th century, such as Cleves, Mark or Ravensberg which were an important source of income through resources and taxes. It's not that Prussia suddenly gained huge swaths of territory there without any legitimacy. Limiting the new acquisitions is understandable in an ATL, but outright denying Prussia its access to the wealthy Rhineland would make the Prussian delegations quite angry, even if they did gain Saxony in return.

Speaking of the Kingdom of Saxony, another thing I'd like to mention is that the very popular Saxon king Frederick August I was already denied the Polish throne AND many traditionally Saxon territories prior and after the Congress despite acting in the region as some sort of last anchor of stability as he retained his (shared) sentiment against the Prussians throughout his reign. I don't think that it is in the interest of both Austria and the UK to further galvanize their support of the smaller German states. But these are only my two pennies on this interesting point in time.
 
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Nivek

Pralaya said:
What some tend to forget is that Prussia and its ruling house had many extensive possessions in the Rhineland prior to the Coalition Wars and that at least since the 17th century, such as Cleves, Mark or Ravensberg which were an important source of income through resources and taxes. It's not that Prussia suddenly gained huge swaths of territory there without any legitimacy. Limiting the new acquisitions is understandable in an ATL, but outright denying Prussia its access to the wealthy Rhineland would make the Prussian delegations quite angry, even if they did gain Saxony in return.
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People hate prussia in this forum a lot
 

knightdepaix

Galba Otho Vitelius said:
The goals were:

1. to contain France, though avoid punishing the restored Bourbons for the Revolution and aftermath
2. reward the chief continental opponents of Napoleon (Austria, Prussia, Russia), except in Austria's case where they didn't want the territory
3. re-establish legitimate (1789) borders

So keep the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy, which had medieval precedent, but under Hapsburg control and remember you have to keep Prussia in check as well as France, though that also requires a good deal of hindsight.
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The aftermath of Napoleonic influence that shall be addressed can be:
2.1) The kingdom of Bavaria - a Napoleonic ally -- was located close to Austria. By confiding the old king's son-in-law Eugene de Beauharnais in Croatia and Slovenia as a governor or ruler of Napoleonic Illyrian Provinces (put it under any new name but it would not include the whole Croatia) while its territory was surrounded by Austrian lands on three sides but an access to the Adriatic, Croatian and Slovenian or Bavarian aspiration against Austria would be contained. Then the process of reversing the aspiration in Croatia and Slovenia could continue. Under the pretext of providing an access to the Mediterranean to Bavaria, the confinement could be more agreeable to Maximillian I and Ludwig I. Austrian Lombardy-Venetia could manage the sea access.
3.1) Poland resurrected on the territory of the Duchy of Warsaw. There would not be wholesome restoration: Stanislaus Poniatowski the nephew of Stanislaus II become the ruler or even Stanislaus III. The House of Poniatowski could continue. If OTL continued, Bismarck's campaign could make use of his son Karol and grandson Józef Stanisław August Friedrich Joseph in Poland to react (not act) against Imperial Russia in some kind of Central Powers co-belligerence.

Do oversea (from Europe) colonies need to be addressed too? Portugal already controlled Mozambique at the time.
 

Wendell

Looking at this thread again, it would be interesting to have both Austria and Prussia with detached westward expanses.
 
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