This was the issue for me as well. There doesn't seem to be a reason that Russia would support this arrangement (other than Congress Poland), but I put it out there to explore if there could be a feasible set of Vienna scenarios where Poland gains greater autonomy.
Congress of Vienna ATL ideas
- Thread starter Disraeli2004
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This was the issue for me as well. There doesn't seem to be a reason that Russia would support this arrangement (other than Congress Poland), but I put it out there to explore if there could be a feasible set of Vienna scenarios where Poland gains greater autonomy.
May I know how to erase the troubles of Baltic, Lithuanian, Polish and Finno-Urgic identities that lay in the middle of Great Powers: Prussia/Germany, Austria/Balkans, Russia/Soviet Union in later decades or century at the Congress? This is a question but not a challenge.
The similar issue in Croatia and Slovenia, where its geographical location was linked to Italy near Venice, Austria, Bavaria and the Bosnian highlands. The governor of choice could be Eugène Rose de Beauharnais, Duke of Leuchtenberg . He was the stepson of Napoleon and son-in-law of the king of Bavaria. He had governed parts of Italy whose Venezia land was then Austrian, Pannonian plain and Bosnian highlands to his east were also Austrian. Essentially his land was an enclave in Austria, except the outlet to the Adriatic Sea. The seaports there would be used by the landlocked Bavarian and his government. Could this "enlightened" governance curtail the factors leading to the Illyrian movement? Beauharais' realm could be something of Illyria. In the OTL (from en.wikipedia), Maksimilijan Vrhovac the bishop of Zagreb had already been working on translating the Bible to a Croatian dialect and Juraj Šporer was going to publish newspaper in a Croatian language. So the undercurrent of the movement had already been stirring or was going to soon when the Congress happened in 1814 and 1815.
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I wonder what Nicholas I would want in Vienna and what he'd be given (say *something bad* happened to Alexander and Constantine). Nicholas had no Polish fixation like his older brothers and I don't see him creating Kingdom of Poland.
As far as the Congress of Vienna is involved, the big part of your question is anachronistic except for the Polish Problem:
1. The Baltic “identities” at that time meant “Germans” or at least German-speakers who did not represent any problem for the Russian Empire: the only complaints were about them being too eager to serve (thus bypassing the Russians). The native speakers at this time were predominantly serfs. In a multi-ethnic Russian Empire this was a commonplace. Period of the growing national culture and recognition of the national identities belongs to the last decades of the XIX century. Not to mention that they were not “in the middle of the Great Powers”: they were well established part of the Russian Empire for more than a century (capitulation of Latvia and Estonia was signed in 1710) and their possssion was not a subject of disputation.
2. The Finns were not in the “middle” of anything because Sweden ceased to be a Great Power. Bernadotte was looking for the crown of Norway as a compensation for the loss of Finland and Alexander supported him on this issue (and was his main supporter internationally against the ideas of Vasa restoration). The Finns got a independent state first time in their history and a forced Russification was an issue of a distant future.
3. “Lithuanian” in a meaningful context meant “Polish” because the local upper classes were Polonized and the Lithuanian serfs did not really matter. In the Belorussian part of the former Grand Duchy a part of the nobility was Russified and the peasants were Belorussians.
Which leaves only the Poles with all related problems. Alexander’s solution proved to be the most idiotic one: in Prussia and Austria between 1815 and 1918 the Poles had been causing much less trouble than in Russia.
In 1915 Nicholas was 19 years old so probably he would have to rely upon whoever he chooses as a Chancellor/Foreign Minister instead of trying to play one as Alexander did. So I would assume just some border rearrangements to have something to show for the efforts. If his appointee is intelligent enough he would bargain for a free hand on the Balkans (within the reasonable limits). Or (as a low probability but not completely ASB) he could get Russian protectorate over the Ionic Republic (in OTL the Brits got it but initially it was under the Russian-Ottoman protectorate and then transferred to France by Tilsit Treaty).
What would these rearangaments looks like? Just keeping formerly Austrian Tarnopil seems not impressive as territorial gain. Perhaps part of Duchy of Warsaw east of Vistula-Narew line?
Perhaps. We are not talking about something truly meaningful economically, just some token acquisition: after all Alexander’s schema did not add anything to the empire.
I think the diplomats at the Congress of Vienna did a good job on the whole, but one area Metternich screwed up was Italy. They should have kept the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy but made a Hapsburg (maybe Franz himself) as King. You still restore the Papal states and could either still create Piedmont-Sardinia as a buffer state, screw over the Savoyards and incorporate Piedmont, Genoa, and Savoy into Italy, or compensate the Savoyards with something like the Ionian isles. Minus Piedmont and Genoa, the Kingdom of Italy would just be areas IOTL annexed to Austria directly or Hapsburg puppet states, but with its own flag and more Italian participation in the government this goes a long way to short circuiting Italian nationalism. Anti-Hapsburg sentiment would probably take the form of a republican movement.
The other error was the united Kingdom of the Netherlands but they could not have known that the Orange dynasty would have screwed that situation up so badly. But given that the French revolutionaries had driven the Orange dynasty from the United Provinces (and they were not kings, just an influential aristocratic family), which was undergoing a sort of revolution even before the French revolution, then the Kingdom of the Netherlands was another Napoleonic creation and he wound up annexing it anyway, the Congress of Vienna really owed the Orange dynasty nothing. They could have gone with a bigger version of IOTL Belgium, incorporating at least Lumembourg and Limburg, with a Catholic monarch. If you go with the Kingdom of Italy idea, the Savoyards would be good candidates, and that put their Italian territories at the disposal of the diplomats. They could strengthen the Kingdom of Belgium with some French territory, and compensate France with Nice, Savoy, and Sardinia.
The other error was the united Kingdom of the Netherlands but they could not have known that the Orange dynasty would have screwed that situation up so badly. But given that the French revolutionaries had driven the Orange dynasty from the United Provinces (and they were not kings, just an influential aristocratic family), which was undergoing a sort of revolution even before the French revolution, then the Kingdom of the Netherlands was another Napoleonic creation and he wound up annexing it anyway, the Congress of Vienna really owed the Orange dynasty nothing. They could have gone with a bigger version of IOTL Belgium, incorporating at least Lumembourg and Limburg, with a Catholic monarch. If you go with the Kingdom of Italy idea, the Savoyards would be good candidates, and that put their Italian territories at the disposal of the diplomats. They could strengthen the Kingdom of Belgium with some French territory, and compensate France with Nice, Savoy, and Sardinia.
Also, of course, he was in physical possession of the entire Duchy of Warsaw and had no intention of relinquishing it. Nor was there any obvious alternative for Russia o acquire in lieu. I'm afraid that one won't fly.
Austria could probably regain Belgium if he wanted to. Th Belgians would certainly be happier under her than under the Dutch. Interesting question who gets Lomardy and Venice in such a case.
Yes, that's broadly what I'm thinking @Mikestone8. I chucked the Poland thing in there to see if there was anyway to make ti work.
Britain wanted Austria to have Belgium to contain the French, but they wanted the richer Lombardy and Venentia.
Maybe the Republic of Venice would be resurrected?
Perhaps if Napoleon doesn't give it to Austria at Campo Formio, but keeps it as a satellite state. The best way to be resurrected is never to have died in the first place. They didn't abolish Switzerland.
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Shall the Congress push forward partition of Eastern and Central Europe that allow ethnicities of some kind of self identities below the old regimes of sovereigns -- German, Russian, Austrians and other nobles related to the those and the past? For example, Stanislaus II's relatives, Beauharnais who were related to French and through marriages, to Bavarian, Sweden, German and Russian....
Seychelles and Mauritius to the Portuguese. Then Portugal as an European country would create a sphere of influence on the Indian coast of Mozambique. Brazil was about to break away from Portugal. Tobago plus St. Lucia would also given to Portugal as the staging pad onto South American mainland and refuge from Brazil.
Seychelles and Mauritius to the Portuguese. Then Portugal as an European country would create a sphere of influence on the Indian coast of Mozambique. Brazil was about to break away from Portugal. Tobago plus St. Lucia would also given to Portugal as the staging pad onto South American mainland and refuge from Brazil.
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So nobody really really knew about Brazil breaking away. The Europeans just expected the Spanish and Portuguese colonies to return as before. The purpose of the Viana Congress was to establish control for the absolute monarchies not to promote nationalism since nationalism was really only emerging as movement.
the most important Thing that could of happen at the conference was the inability of the French representative from being so influential that he was able to basically re-establish French influence and get almost all of France’s colonies and possessions returned.
send a different person who was less effective and France is clipped and the other countries benefit from france’s aggression.
as for Portugal, force Spain to return olivenza and not make the language ambiguous. Maybe add in all lands north of Rio de la plata and Fernando Po as compensation for its aggression and alliance with France. While we at it we want Ceuta back too.
All of them ASB except the Austrian ones... Maybe the Saxony one, the idea was to make a 'kingdom of rhineland' and give the wettis but they wanted saxony over anything
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Since Prussia had the best claim to the Rhine land I always thought it be good to give it to a younger son of the Prussian king. Over time they be as interested in self preservation and ally with other western German countries to prevent either french, Austrian or Prussian incursions
The thing is there was a fear might not being enough to be a detterance against france, that is why rhineland was part of prussia proper, that way the prussia army treated it like part of the homeland and shaped recruit and defense second to none.
Regardless of the situation in Brazil, at the time, Portugal already owned Mozambique. Madagascar was in its own rule. Giving Seychelles and Mauritius to the Portuguese would allow Portugal as an European country would create a sphere of influence on the Indian Ocean coast of Mozambique, more or less to compensate for Portuguese material loss during the Peninsula War and removed French influence as a punishment. Also that sphere could become the staging area from Portugal to India. Did Mozambique produce sugar and tea back then?
How about the Croats and the Slovenes under French governance and the Greeks who had showed consciousness of themselves under the Ottoman rule? A half-puppet half-self governing state over the Croats and the Slovenes would block Italian and Balkans influences into Europe and kept the Croats and Slovenes at the liberialism they had got under French. The state would also provide the access to the Mediterranean Sea to the governance. Eugène de Beauharnais would be a good choice because:
1) he was a governor under Napoleon.
2) He was a son-in-law of Bavaria, a landlocked state. His rule would provide the sea access to Bavaria.
3) His French connection would keep the Croats and Slovenes content with the past French rule.
4) The French-Bavaria relation there could keep Russian Slavic influence in check away from the Balkans.
5) The sea access would allow German influence via Bavaria into the Mediterranean Sea. While the Greeks would be upsetting the Ottomans soon, this arrangement would allow not only the British but also the German influence, both were the victors of the Battle of Waterloo.
6) The French-Bavarian relation would help strengthen Sardinia-Savoy as a buffet state.
In essence Sardinia buffered France and Beauharnais house buffered the Hapsburg.
These settings favored German and British influences as both were victors at Waterloo while keeping Hapsburg, France and Russia tangled against each other in local political affairs.
1) he was a governor under Napoleon.
2) He was a son-in-law of Bavaria, a landlocked state. His rule would provide the sea access to Bavaria.
3) His French connection would keep the Croats and Slovenes content with the past French rule.
4) The French-Bavaria relation there could keep Russian Slavic influence in check away from the Balkans.
5) The sea access would allow German influence via Bavaria into the Mediterranean Sea. While the Greeks would be upsetting the Ottomans soon, this arrangement would allow not only the British but also the German influence, both were the victors of the Battle of Waterloo.
6) The French-Bavarian relation would help strengthen Sardinia-Savoy as a buffet state.
In essence Sardinia buffered France and Beauharnais house buffered the Hapsburg.
These settings favored German and British influences as both were victors at Waterloo while keeping Hapsburg, France and Russia tangled against each other in local political affairs.
The Congress of Vienna was not about satisfying national aspirations.
The goals were:
1. to contain France, though avoid punishing the restored Bourbons for the Revolution and aftermath
2. reward the chief continental opponents of Napoleon (Austria, Prussia, Russia), except in Austria's case where they didn't want the territory
3. re-establish legitimate (1789) borders unless this conflicts with #1 or #2 or the preceding twenty years showed they just weren't tenable
They did a good job and the settlement held up much better than nearly all other multinational treaties.
Areas of improvement were pretty limited. Though this would have required probably unreasonable hindsight, it turned out the House of Orange was not the best place to park the Austrian Netherlands. So try to find an alternative solution to that. The only real nationalist movement that turned out to be a problem were the Italian and German ones. No other national movements, let alone Greece, threatened to disturb the peace of Europe, even the Hungarian issue was contained and the Congress could not force the creation of a Hungarian kingdom anyway. So keep the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy, which had medieval precedent, but under Hapsburg control and remember you have to keep Prussia in check as well as France, though that also requires a good deal of hindsight.
The goals were:
1. to contain France, though avoid punishing the restored Bourbons for the Revolution and aftermath
2. reward the chief continental opponents of Napoleon (Austria, Prussia, Russia), except in Austria's case where they didn't want the territory
3. re-establish legitimate (1789) borders unless this conflicts with #1 or #2 or the preceding twenty years showed they just weren't tenable
They did a good job and the settlement held up much better than nearly all other multinational treaties.
Areas of improvement were pretty limited. Though this would have required probably unreasonable hindsight, it turned out the House of Orange was not the best place to park the Austrian Netherlands. So try to find an alternative solution to that. The only real nationalist movement that turned out to be a problem were the Italian and German ones. No other national movements, let alone Greece, threatened to disturb the peace of Europe, even the Hungarian issue was contained and the Congress could not force the creation of a Hungarian kingdom anyway. So keep the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy, which had medieval precedent, but under Hapsburg control and remember you have to keep Prussia in check as well as France, though that also requires a good deal of hindsight.
Maybe Prussia? They already Hold it and might keep it in Exhange getting even Less Saxony instead