Confederate Victory at Chattanooga

ben0628

Banned
As most of us already know, in the year 1863, Braxton Bragg won a huge victory at the battle of Chickamauga. Afterwards, the Union Army of the Cumberland hastily retreated to Chattanooga which then became under siege.

Personally, I feel that the Union victory at Chattanooga was the true turning point in the war. It opened up the deep south to the Union army and the victory sent General Grant east to fight Lee.

Now the question is, could the Confederates have won the siege of Chattanooga? Could they have starved the entire Army of the Cumberland and forced them to surrender? If they could and did, could it be argued that Grant is never sent east, the South re invades Tennessee, and Lincoln loses the 1864 elections?

I'm perfectly willing to admit that I am not the greatest expert on the Civil War on this forum (waiting for a certain Smith to destroy this post ;)). However, in my opinion the siege of Chattanooga is the best chance for the South to either make peace or at least delay the inevitable.

Another question. If a Southern Victory at Chattanooga doesn't do much to help the South, would a even bigger victory at Chickamauga do a better job at helping?
 
The command structure of the Confederate army was total chaos at this time, with pro and anti Bragg camps writing letters to Richmond about the others. When Jeff Davis has to travel personally to Chattanooga to try to straighten out the mess.....that's a problem. And it doesn't really get fixed by appointing a new commander, because there was still significant support for Bragg. Elevating a corp commander would ramp up the rivalries. Most of the available generals that could be brought in from out of theater were unacceptable to Davis. IIRC correctly, Longstreet was offered command and refused.

Closing off the cracker line is always going to be a difficult. CSA cavalry could have been more effective, but that runs into the politics as well. IIRC Forrest had already been given his independent command and left the theater. Wheeler was in charge because of Bragg's favoritism more than his resume.

Trying to close off the north of Chattanooga with infantry is going to run into it's own logistical troubles for the Rebs. All the significant railroads and bridges are pretty much in Chattanooga.
 
A bigger victory at Chickamauga could definitely move in the right direction. But that battle already had a couple lucky dice rolls for the South.

Some standard ideas:
Polk actually starts the rolling brigade attack at dawn (as ordered) instead of waiting until mid morning.

Hood isn't wounded. OTL two brigade commanders argued over who was the senior officer to take command and the breakthrough stalled for a couple hours. Bragg can pick one or send Buckner (senior to both) to take temporary command.

Forrest is ordered to apply more pressure on the right flank and Granger's reserve corp is held in place instead of moving to reinforce Thomas on Snodgrass Hill.
 
I like the aspect that if Thomas surrenders at Chattanooga .......

Bragg next goes to Nashville and is stopped by Grant, Grant re-captures Chattanooga.

Lee and Meade continue to dance in Virginia ..... Meade is not able to bring about a clear fight. Lee blocks his movements. Perhaps the only thing that Mead accomplishes is to block the northern end of the Shenandoah valley.

But like you mention ..... at the 1864 elections, it appears as though not much has been gained.

Meade is blocked in Virginia
Grant is in Chattanooga
Mobile Bay falls
Union secures northern section of Sheandoah Valley

How does the election turn out? No progress, but no blood letting either?

What northerners do not see is the effectiveness of the blockade.

Lincoln wins 1864 elections, Grant has a grand campaign of 1865, war over in 1866.

Grants march to the sea ,,,,,,, he deems a march from Chatanoga to Atlanta to be too costly, he

He places Sherman in charge at Chatanoga to defend Tennessee

He starts from Jackson MS and drives to Selma, AL then to Montgomery then to Atlanta.

The confederates are in a vice between Sherman and Grant around Atlanta.

Atlanta falls, Grant and Sherman march to Savannah and through the Carolinas then up to Virginia to meet Meade and end Lee late 1865/1866.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Take a look at the operational situation:

As most of us already know, in the year 1863, Braxton Bragg won a huge victory at the battle of Chickamauga. Afterwards, the Union Army of the Cumberland hastily retreated to Chattanooga which then became under siege. Personally, I feel that the Union victory at Chattanooga was the true turning point in the war. It opened up the deep south to the Union army and the victory sent General Grant east to fight Lee. Now the question is, could the Confederates have won the siege of Chattanooga? Could they have starved the entire Army of the Cumberland and forced them to surrender? If they could and did, could it be argued that Grant is never sent east, the South re invades Tennessee, and Lincoln loses the 1864 elections? I'm perfectly willing to admit that I am not the greatest expert on the Civil War on this forum (waiting for a certain Smith to destroy this post ;)). However, in my opinion the siege of Chattanooga is the best chance for the South to either make peace or at least delay the inevitable. Another question. If a Southern Victory at Chattanooga doesn't do much to help the South, would a even bigger victory at Chickamauga do a better job at helping?

Take a look at the operational situation; in neither case, Chickamauga or Chattanooga, could the rebels do much more than what they accomplished historically.

http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/chickamauga.html

http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/chattanooga.html?tab=facts

With Thomas' troops' stand after Chickamauga, the Army of the Cumberland can still retreat into the city's fortifications; during the siege, Bragg (or whoever) is still trying to besiege Thomas's army within the city's fortifications while Grant's army is free to maneuver and open up the supply line. Once that's done, Bragg is on the defensive and outnumbered, which leads to the historical results.

The rebels needed another army to occupy Grant while Bragg besieged Thomas; they didn't have one, however. It had been chewed up at Donelson and Island Number 10 and Arkansas Post and Vicksburg...

Given the demographic and economic differentials between the US and the rebels, the rebels were never going to have more troops than the US did, and the quality differential, if if ever truly was in play, was long gone by 1863.

Quality can sometimes overcome quantity, and quantity usually overcomes quality, but quantity and quality will always win out. By 1863, the US forces had both.

Best,
 
The problem with this and oodles of other scenarios is it assumes there was some missed chance that would have knocked the union out of the war with one big blow - or at least set off a chain of events against which Union resistance is always futile for some reason despite the vast material advantages the north had.

In reality a decisive victory like that was impossible.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True ... all one has to do is look at the demographic and

The problem with this and oodles of other scenarios is it assumes there was some missed chance that would have knocked the union out of the war with one big blow - or at least set off a chain of events against which Union resistance is always futile for some reason despite the vast material advantages the north had. In reality a decisive victory like that was impossible.

True ... all one has to do is look at the demographic and economic advantages the US had over the rebels.

Best,
 
May I suggest you take a look at the novel "Shattered Nation" it is written by a member of this board, covers a victory in the West in 1864. While not your scenario it is a victory in the west, which is unusal. I know you can find it on Amazon.

To be clear I'm not the author, do not know the author. Not trying to shill for the author just agood read with a good pod.
 
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