Confederate States of America in WWII

Kenny

Kevin Willmott movie CSA


Not sure if any of you have seen the movie: CSA: The Confederate States of America


But the movie is a BBC documentary on the history of the CSA and victory over the USA. Kind of a what if the south would of won the war. In the movie they show the history of the Confederate States from the Civil War to the moon landings.


They make the claim that the CSA would of stay out of WWII. Hitler even comes and visits the Confederate president to talk to him about the “Black Problem” the Confederate States still having slaves. I'm not sold on the ideal that a Confederate States of America would be so friendly to Germany.


The South does not have large ethic German population, unlike northern states of Minnesota and Wisconsin. I can't see what angle the Germans would use to get the south on it's side.



How do you think WWII would have been with a Confederate States of America?



How different do you think the outcome of WWII would have been with a Confederate States of America.


I believe that even a CSA government would of lent-lease to England. The south was trying to get them on their side during the Civil War so it seems the two nations would still be on friendly terms during the conflict. But that being said I can't see a CSA government giving lent-lease to Russia.



Japanese would of still bombed Pearl Harbor to get the Americans out of the Pacific. I can't see a Southerner walking away from a fight, so we still be at war with the Japanese. That would mean war with the Germans.




The only real differences I can see is in the post war years. I doubt a CSA government would have been so friendly with U.S.S.R. I couldn't see them allowing the “godless communist” take half of Europe, the south being overly religious.



Maybe I am misreading the south, but they do seem to be very god fearing and all. So I can't see a CSA government working with a Communist government.



But otherwise I can't see were a CSA government as oppose to a USA government would of benefited the Axis powers that much. Maybe I am completely wrong, but I don't think so.
 
Julius Vogel

Julius Vogel

I don't think it is really possible to answer these points as a WWII based on this scenario would be totally different from our WWII, so to guess what the actions of a much reduced US, a hypothetical Confederate country 80 years past a vicious war of independence and the Great Powers of Europe or East Asia would be rather pointless without a lot more information.

For one, would either this reduced US move on Hawaii and seize it, as IOTL, or would the comparatively more powerful Great Britain allow the US to get away with such a move? Pearl Harbour might just be a pretty port in the League of Nations Mandate of Polynesia for all I know
 

Xenos

That movie was just ridiculous. Especially when the CSA invaded and annexed all of Central and South America. The writers were predicting the CSA's future policies based on the extreme views of a small number of individuals living at the time.
I really do wonder what kind of perverse motives drove the people who made that film.
Also, I don't believe that a surviving CSA would be radically different from the USA by the early 20th Century. The people of the former Union are not suddenly going to be converted by force into a slave-owning society. Abolition is inevitable.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
And CSA victory would not mean the annexation of the US. (ASB 1)
Slavery survive the mechanization of agriculture (ASB 2)
No butterflies, WW1 end the same without American involvement, and Hitler seem to lose WW2 in the same manner without the Yanks or Dixies. (ASB 3)
The Latin American conquest was just stupid (ASB 4)
The same political leader arise in CSA politics as in our TL US politics (again, no butterflies) (ASB 5)
The whole Cold War with Canada bullshit (ASB 6)
 

Markus

Banned
Let me add another ASB. The assumption the CSA would become a superpower like the USA. Even if the ASB made the annexation of the USA possible, that would not happen because of demographics.

Before the ACW the overwhelming majority of immigrant went to free states. I´m not 100% sure but I think less than 10% went to slave states with the result of these falling behind economically. So the population(=economy=power) of a CSA would grow very slow as immigrants would go to South America and Canada.
 

ninebucks

Banned
Groan.

If the South wins their independence, the United States is greatly weakened. As such, when *WWI arises, its unlikely that the US will be able to involve itself. If we still assume the same alliances, and that Russia will still drop out, then a decisive Entente victory is out of the question. The War could go either way, but it will last a lot longer. The most likely outcome I think would be a negotiated settlement, (probably more in favour of the Central Powers, as they always had the more reasonable war goals).

In such a scenario, Germany is not going to face the humiliation of OTL Versailles, and so there will be no rise of the Nazis, and thus no second world war.

(And that's the least butterflies that I am comfortable assuming...)
 
Tallest Skil

Tallest Skil

Banned
yourworstnightmare said:
And CSA victory would not mean the annexation of the US. (ASB 1)
Slavery survive the mechanization of agriculture (ASB 2)
No butterflies, WW1 end the same without American involvement, and Hitler seem to lose WW2 in the same manner without the Yanks or Dixies. (ASB 3)
The Latin American conquest was just stupid (ASB 4)
The same political leader arise in CSA politics as in our TL US politics (again, no butterflies) (ASB 5)
The whole Cold War with Canada bullshit (ASB 6)
Click to expand...

Oh, and only mentioned in two lines, but the "annexationist campaign in southeast Asia" near the end. (ASB 6)
 

AmIndHistoryAuthor

Banned
Kenny said:
They make the claim that the CSA would of stay out of WWII. Hitler even comes and visits the Confederate president to talk to him about the “Black Problem” the Confederate States still having slaves. I'm not sold on the ideal that a Confederate States of America would be so friendly to Germany.

The South does not have large ethic German population, unlike northern states of Minnesota and Wisconsin. I can't see what angle the Germans would use to get the south on it's side.
Click to expand...

There's been more than a few threads on the subject. Many doubt the CSA would even survive to WWII. And as someone else pointed out, possibly their very existence may butterfly away Versailles, and thus the Nazis' rise.

But assuming neither of the two above happen, there would almost certainly be some in the CSA who might find the Nazi ideology appealing. To pretend otherwise is almost ASB. Not just the common element of racism and white supremacy, but also the romanticized view of an agricultural past (which for the CSA might actually still be a present ITTL).

There'd also likely be a great many in the CSA who'd be repulsed by the Nazis. Not just nonwhites and antiracists, but southern gentry and their supporters who find the Nazi appeal to an angry industrial populace to be vulgar and harsh.

There might also be pragmatic reasons for an alliance that have nothing to do with ideology, much like the Nazi-Soviet pact.

I also recall a thread where the CSA faces a revolutionary workers' revolt. Fears about such a revolt might lead to the rise of a fascist movement within the CSA. It might not get as huge as the Nazis IOTL, but it could easily get as big as the KKK was IOTL in the 1920s.
 

The Red

The movie was okay but nevetheless ASB almost as bad as a world without America. Anyway the CSA surviving would likely butterfly WW2 from existence or change it radically so there would be no Nazi Germany.
 

DuQuense

Out side the Movie

The South is the most Isolationist area in the US, Given a Independent CSA made of the 11 OTL States, this would be much more powerful component of CS foreign policy.
This would be compounded in the Confederacy's early years, by the Condemnation of the Confederacy's continued Slavery.
Over time the US would be the CS's largest trading pardner, and the relationship would be like US/Mexico.

When this TL's Great War breaks out, the Confederacy would declare Neutrality, and absent a direct attack would stick to it.
However I do see a lot of Confeds volunteering with the US Forces.
 

Fiver

Markus said:
Before the ACW the overwhelming majority of immigrant went to free states. I´m not 100% sure but I think less than 10% went to slave states with the result of these falling behind economically. So the population(=economy=power) of a CSA would grow very slow as immigrants would go to South America and Canada.
Click to expand...

In 1860, 2.6% of the CSA population was foreign born, compared to 17.5% of the USA. By 1910, only 2.0% of the population of the former Confederacy was foreign born, while 18.6% of the rest of the US was foreign born.
 

Fox of Ages

Banned
ninebucks said:
Groan.

If the South wins their independence, the United States is greatly weakened. As such, when *WWI arises, its unlikely that the US will be able to involve itself. If we still assume the same alliances, and that Russia will still drop out, then a decisive Entente victory is out of the question. The War could go either way, but it will last a lot longer. The most likely outcome I think would be a negotiated settlement, (probably more in favour of the Central Powers, as they always had the more reasonable war goals).

In such a scenario, Germany is not going to face the humiliation of OTL Versailles, and so there will be no rise of the Nazis, and thus no second world war.

(And that's the least butterflies that I am comfortable assuming...)
Click to expand...
the problem with that is we might get a Red Alert Situation out of that...
 

BlackWave

I think some people miss the point of that film; IIRC, it was more supposed to be satirical than any serious attempt at AH. Anyway, a CSA may radically alter WW1, let alone WW2.
 

dcver

Xenos said:
I really do wonder what kind of perverse motives drove the people who made that film.
Click to expand...
It was mainly sattire of historical documentaries. Or them fantasizing that everyone else is a racist and they are such good people for not being racists.
 

Mister Abbadon

what I really disliked about it was the commercials in between its implying that not only because the south wins by now most americans are what we would consider hicks and by extenstion all southerners are hicks what a bunch of Bull
 

B_Munro

Perhaps it's some sort of crude logic along the lines of hicks usually vote Republican - the southern states vote Republican - therefore the south is mostly hicks?
Anyhoo, it's not _likely_ at all that there is a Hitler-let German-started WWII in a "Confederacy Survives" TL (and for a superpower Confederacy, you probably need a much earlier POD: see DOD), but it's not on the level of "Richard Nixon selling cars in a no-American revolution TL": Hitler is born only about a quarter century after the POD, and Germany could have lost WWI without the US getting directly involved: the British were fielding increasingly large numbers of tanks, and getting better at using them, while the Germans were getting pretty sick of eating sawdust bread and turnip greens. I'd accept an AH novel with the premise, although I'd be most annoyed if there weren't plenty of butterflies elsewhere.

Bruce
 

DuQuense

I have never been happy with the premise that the US & CS would be permament Opponents.
I see the US - CS as closer to OTL's US - Mexico, Not the Best-est Friends, but certainly not Enemies.
The CS would be one of the US's three biggest trade partners. Canada & Mexico being the other two. Not sure of the Order here.

I see the CS being Neutral in GW 1, while having lots of Volunteers in the US AEF.

In GW 2, I see the CS joining the Allies along with such as Mexico and Brazil, and sending the same division or two, along with being a supply centre.
 
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