Confederate States of America: An Inviable Nation?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Valdemar II

Banned
On immigration I disagree with people who say little emigration will happen. Brazil and other Latin American states got plenty of immigration. Any immigration will just be different and focused on setting up rural communes in low populated parts of CSA. They will likely love the low tax and weak government CSA, where they can be left to do what they want in their settlements.
 
Vlademar II said:
On immigration I disagree with people who say little emigration will happen. Brazil and other Latin American states got plenty of immigration. Any immigration will just be different and focused on setting up rural communes in low populated parts of CSA. They will likely love the low tax and weak government CSA, where they can be left to do what they want in their settlements.

Which is unlike the high tax and strong government US...riiiiiight. What high tax and strong government US?

And the lack of economic opportunity in the CSA is a problem. Easier to get good farmland in the West than in the Large Plantation Dominated CSA.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Which is unlike the high tax and strong government US...riiiiiight. What high tax and strong government US?

And the lack of economic opportunity in the CSA is a problem. Easier to get good farmland in the West than in the Large Plantation Dominated CSA.

There was enough soil in CSA for growth, especially because European settlers will favour different soil/land from plantage owners. And it wasn't like the existance of USA resulted in low emigration to Brazil, Brazil, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, Russia or Canada. European emigrated in this periode and they wasn't discriminating in choices of countries. If there was cheap soil, and somewhat survival climate they moved there. I don't see why CSA on that point are going to be different from Brazil or Mexico.
 

Hendryk

Banned
These CSA threads get tiresome, we always get the same tired and discredited arguments from the usual coterie of Confederate apologists. So I approve of bumping an old one, saves everyone some time.
4. The pre-ACW south was actually prime for immigration. It got a large number of European immigrants in the 40's and 50's. The reason for the decline in post-ACW immigration to the South is due to the massive destruction and economic crippling of the South caused by Sherman's Total War, which burned millions of dollars in farmlands, railroads, and industrial buildings.
Put me firmly on the side of the skeptics as far as migration to the CSA is concerned. People who left Europe did so because they sought economic opportunity and political freedom, in either order. What attraction would a quasi-feudal backwater hold to them? That's exactly the kind of place they're leaving behind. If they wanted to toil as sharecroppers for the benefit of entrenched reactionary landlords, they could have stayed in the old country. Meanwhile, there's a vibrant industrializing power eagerly seeking more manpower north of the Mason-Dixon line. It's not exactly a hard choice to make.

Furthermore, it's likely the CSA would have turned to Mexico as a source of labor and numbers, as the relatively weak Mexican state would have presented a prime opportunity for expansion, for, despite it's stance of State's rights, like the rest of the country, the CSA believed strongly in expansion, and claimed New Mexico and Arizona territories as its own.
And the USA is going to just sit and watch as the CSA grabs Mexican territory?
 
There was enough soil in CSA for growth, especially because European settlers will favour different soil/land from plantage owners. And it wasn't like the existance of USA resulted in low emigration to Brazil, Brazil, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, Russia or Canada. European emigrated in this periode and they wasn't discriminating in choices of countries. If there was cheap soil, and somewhat survival climate they moved there. I don't see why CSA on that point are going to be different from Brazil or Mexico.

Why would they favor different soil/land than plantation owners when the planters are taking the good land?

If they weren't discriminating in their choice of countries, why do we see so many people coming to the US?

Brazil and Mexico are not promising success stories, particularly the latter.

Minor note: Brazil and Brazil? Is there another country that was supposed to be here, or are the gremlins just Brazilian nationalists?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Why would they favor different soil/land than plantation owners when the planters are taking the good land?

Because land which are good for cotton aren't the kind of land you really want to use for European style food farming, it's to hot and damp.

If they weren't discriminating in their choice of countries, why do we see so many people coming to the US?

Because USA had more soil with the right climate, and you also tens of millions ending up in other countries.

Brazil and Mexico are not promising success stories, particularly the latter.


Where have I said it would end up a succes story? large immigration doesn't translate into economic success. It just mean people move there. The problem are that people translate immigration to economic success by looking on USA, rather than look at all those countries in Latin America which got large immigration but still end up poor and undeveloped.

Minor note: Brazil and Brazil? Is there another country that was supposed to be here, or are the gremlins just Brazilian nationalists?

Argentina
 
Because land which are good for cotton aren't the kind of land you really want to use for European style food farming, it's to hot and damp.

How much of the land in the major cotton states does this leave?

Because USA had more soil with the right climate, and you also tens of millions ending up in other countries.

Something that will still apply in this timeline, in other words.

Where have I said it would end up a succes story? large immigration doesn't translate into economic success. It just mean people move there. The problem are that people translate immigration to economic success by looking on USA, rather than look at all those countries in Latin America which got large immigration but still end up poor and undeveloped.

You didn't, but the idea that the Confederacy will received large scale immigration and that this will be an asset is sort of implied in general.

Argentina

Gotcha.
 
Blue Max, it wasn't t he issue of slavery that caused Britain to stay out of the war, it was that Lincoln made IT the war. Up till the EmancProc, the ACW was about Federal Government over States' or States' over Government's.

Which is why the CS Constitution explicitly prevented free states from joining this Jeffersonian paradise, is it?

1. Anyway, I think that Britain and France would help the South recover quickly when (if) it became a country with cotton, tobacco, etc. despite slavery. And since those BIG nations are involved, I don't think much, if not any, international problems would come about. However, internal problems are a whole different matter. 3 should say what would happen decently.

Actually there was a bumper crop of cotton in 1859 and by the time that became relevant Egypt and India gave Britain the same amount. Of course if the South decides to willfully *not* use cotton to finance itself thinking it can blackmail the British Empire......that's geopolitics of the Harry Harrison sort. And did not work.

2. The above just about summed up this. Cotton mainly started to decline because the Union's blockade cut about 5 million yearly exports of the crop to Britain. If the South won, I'd think cotton would resupply rather quickly.

On the contrary, the British Empire stepped in to fill the void of OTL, and no POD will ever give the CSA a snowball's chance in Hell of matching the Raj as a source of cotton.

3. I combined 3 and 4 because they're the same. Thing is, states could secede from the South if they wanted to. That could cause some serious problems. And what would happen to Maryland if the South won the war? Maybe it would be one of the spoils. The Missouri and Kentucky problems are strange too. A peaceful matter would be a delegation to decide which side to lean towards. The other is a civil war in those states (like Bleeding Kansas!). Since blacks were growing in population all over the deep south, something would have to be done to either decrease their population or increase the whites'.

1) No, actually I don't think this is something that would happen in the real world. The CSA would have discovered hypocrisy on this issue faster than you could shake a stick at it. ITOL it already assumed vaster, more wide-sweeping power over its citizens than Lincoln did. If foreign intervention makes it possible the USA *will* treat it as India-Pakistan, meaning there's nothing good for the CSA to do and the options range from merely "bad" to "clusterfuck".

(1) Ever read Harry Turtledove's Settling Acounts: The Grapple? If so, do you remember Camp Determination? If not, it was a
concentration camp to kill blacks. Even though that was in 1943, someone in the South may have developed the idea to eliminate the CSA's enemies.

Yeah, the state founded to protect slavery the institution is going to kill off 1/3 of its population whose status as slaves it spent so much in money and lives to secure? Improbable in the extreme barring replacing Jeff Davis's personality with that of Pol Pot.

(2) Let's say the Civil War had damaged the North more than the South. Because of Britain and France, the Confederacy swiftly recovers (or does not plunge the nation into depression). Davis organizes a policy to persuade his allies to stop all trade with AMerice (i.e. revenge). The Union plunges into depression, as the South seems to shine golden. Immigrants pay attention to this. Soon, Charleston, New Orleans, etc. become ports of entry. The islands off of North Carolina become like Ellis Island. White population greatly increases.

This is vanishingly unlikely. The USA could lose to the joint offensive, but there will always be the geopolitical reality that it's much easier for the USA to hurt the CSA than the other way around.

Though there were a number of challenges confronting the CSA, the first two would not be largely significant.

1. Slavery, despite being written into the CSA constitution, was a doomed institution. It would not have persisted into the 20th century for dozens of reasons, not the least of which being that a large percentage of Confederate higher-ups understood that, regardless of any aid you granted it, the institution would fall away naturally with time. Also considering that some sources say the Confederacy intended to have various methods of self-emancipating, and other anti-slavery programs to encourage the British and French to ally with them, it's doubtful CSA slavery would have lasted even as long as its Brazilian counterpart.

The CS Constitution made emancipation a virtual impossibility and forbade any kind of action to extend to industrialization. Slavery would be held to in the atavistic sense that the CSA was all about. And in fact I would not be surprised if the CSA and Brazil at least have some thought about a joint New World slaveholders' bloc as they're both the last two slaveholding nations in the New World.

2. The CSA was a sought after trade partner. Has the US not initiated a blockade, the CSA would have continued the trade associates it had prior to the war: Britain, France, Spain, Portugal and Russia were all recipients of future-CSA members' goods prior to the ACW. Furthermore, it's doubtful either state would maintain a large standing army, given the tradition of the time to rely more on a small, professional army to stall an attack, and a larger, volunteer force to repel it, which persisted in OTL into WWII. Furthermore, both Atlanta and Richmond were viable manufacturing cities, though admittedly not as potentially fruitful as Pittsburgh or Chicago, they were seen as prime markets for manufacturing, and had already opened a number of factories between the time of secession and the fall of the cities. Railroads, too were being made, planned to connect Atlanta to Texas. The US advance actually destroyed more southern factories and railroad lines then were produced by the North during the war.

The USA didn't maintain a large standing army because there was no nearby enemy that required one. An independent CSA due to West Virginia and fugitive slaves, not to mention the legacy of the War of Secession would be a completely different geopolitical ballgame. The taboo against a standing army would disappear with a hostile enemy right next door south of the Potomac. Due to the CS Constitution's prohibition of industrialization if it tries an arms race with the USA, it will lose.

The CSA may become an earlier USSR and collapse from inability to sustain itself over a long period of time, or there may be 2, possibly 3 US-CS Wars. There will in no circumstances be Confederate Blitzkrieg and a Philadelphia nukes after three prior wars.

3. Internal disputes could be handled in a number of ways. More often then not, it would fall to the two disputing states to decide upon a proper method, with the federal government only stepping in if there was a military engagement between the two, or if mediation was requested. Counter-secession is doubtful to occur, largely due to the shown propensity of the Union to attempt to retain lost states. It's doubtful any of the more Northern states would have seceded for fear of invasion, and the more southern states would be kept member by geographic ties (excluding Florida, which would have likely remained due to its reliance on the other member states for economic power).

This is more North Korea-South Korea or India-Pakistan than anything analogous to more harmonious break-ups. The USA will be getting a revanchist mindset and justifying the large standing army is easy with the CSA south of the Potomac. If it comes to that, too, the USA is much more able to afford a large standing army and pay for it than the CSA is, as the USA was already industrial and the CSA made industrialization and emancipation impossible bar a military putsch by liberal-minded CS officers (itself not very likely).

4. The pre-ACW south was actually prime for immigration. It got a large number of European immigrants in the 40's and 50's. The reason for the decline in post-ACW immigration to the South is due to the massive destruction and economic crippling of the South caused by Sherman's Total War, which burned millions of dollars in farmlands, railroads, and industrial buildings. Furthermore, it's likely the CSA would have turned to Mexico as a source of labor and numbers, as the relatively weak Mexican state would have presented a prime opportunity for expansion, for, despite it's stance of State's rights, like the rest of the country, the CSA believed strongly in expansion, and claimed New Mexico and Arizona territories as its own.

Not by comparison to the USA. And ITTL with the CSA an unstable society and the likelihood of creeping CS military takeovers of that society that's not going to encourage emigration. And at any moment the CSA's leaders decide Round II with the Yankees is a good idea they get smashed and absorbed back into the USA.
 
Not by comparison to the USA. And ITTL with the CSA an unstable society and the likelihood of creeping CS military takeovers of that society that's not going to encourage emigration. And at any moment the CSA's leaders decide Round II with the Yankees is a good idea they get smashed and absorbed back into the USA.

If there has been any period of time between round I and round II would the USA want them back?

Is it me or while we have hundreds of threads about what a victorious CSA would look like there seem far fewer discussions upon the future of a defeated USA?
 
A defeated USA is still capable of being a strong and viable nation, so there's not as much to say unless one wants to balkanize it.
 
A defeated USA is still capable of being a strong and viable nation, so there's not as much to say unless one wants to balkanize it.

But its not as if the culture, ambitions, economy, demography and so on of the USA is rendered completely unchanged by the loss of the South.
 
But its not as if the culture, ambitions, economy, demography and so on of the USA is rendered completely unchanged by the loss of the South.

Agreed.

I think part of it is also that the people who construct CSA win (the by definition other half of USA lose) timelines tend to be focused on the CSA - that is, they're not as interested in the USA.
 
Which is why the CS Constitution explicitly prevented free states from joining this Jeffersonian paradise, is it?
Listen, just because the CS Constitution's primary difference from the US was slavery,

And the new state constitutions highlighted slavery,

As did the public speeches of the movers and shakers behind secession, and the secession declarations,

And their money actually seriously had labouring slaves on it...
 
Due to the CS Constitution's prohibition of industrialization if it tries an arms race with the USA, it will lose.

There is no prohibition on industrialization in the Confederate Constitution.

Let's save everyone some time, because this always pops up when people have these debates every two weeks or so:

Slave-owning Southern Types said:
The Congress shall have power: To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes; but neither this, nor any other clause contained in the Constitution, shall ever be construed to delegate the power to Congress to appropriate money for any internal improvement intended to facilitate commerce; except for the purpose of furnishing lights, beacons, and buoys, and other aids to navigation upon the coasts, and the improvement of harbors and the removing of obstructions in river navigation; in all which cases such duties shall be laid on the navigation facilitated thereby as may be necessary to pay the costs and expenses thereof.

There is no "Thou shalt not industrialize" clause in the Confederate Constitution. That said, the clause quoted above sharply decreases the likelihood of any sort of successful industrialization by a victorious CSA.
 
Conveniently ignoring that the people who made the discoveries did so with Pennsylvanian help - and not as in hired hands, but as in engineers who knew something about drilling.

http://www.priweb.org/ed/pgws/history/history_home.html

For things to go as they did OTL requires a lot of foreign effort. Why would they do that?

This is assuming butterflies don't get in the way, because I hate using that as a reason against something.

The USA still has other areas than Texas - including California - and will have the know-how to do something about it. All the oil deposits in the world won't do the Confederacy a lick of good if they're owned and developed by foreigners, which is a more likely outcome than it getting rich of them.

The CSA even lasting to 1900 is iffy.

Not even touching the steel production comment until at least some reference is given.

Fair enough. I've done some reading on Texan oil, and found that the Texans (being dumbasses) considered the oil worthless.

The steel? I saw it in my Social Studies textbook.
 
I'll make one more post and then respectfully bow out because these threads never end up productive.

"Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated."

Things change. The Confederacy of 1861 will not be the same Confederacy of 1961; it will change. Whether for the good or worse will be based on what happens in between and it begins with when and how they win the war.
 
I think at somepoint the European powers will drop the CSA like a ton of bricks, as soon as even a few of these issues come into a increasingly worse and worse light. I think if the road to WW1 plays out OTLish the Entente will make overturns to the US to get support or neutrality.

Further their are possibilites with Mexico. I doubt the CSA would support a Monarchial Mexico, I think a Republican Mexico would return by WW1 and if the CSA remains with the Entente then the Germans would incite Meixco to invade the CSA. The US could remain neutral and allow Mexico to take apart the CSA.
 
Last edited:
If there has been any period of time between round I and round II would the USA want them back?

Is it me or while we have hundreds of threads about what a victorious CSA would look like there seem far fewer discussions upon the future of a defeated USA?

Well, North and South Korea still want re-united Korea after all these years and Ho Chih Minh was willing to oversee two wars and his successors finished a third to re-establish one Vietnam. For any alternate USA loss of the South would become a geopolitical obsession akin to the USSR's monomania about regaining the Baltic States and Finland.

Or France's loss of Alsace-Lorraine, or Germany's loss of the Polish Corridor. Or Ireland's claims on Ulster......that the USA would treat the CSA any different is not born out by history.

A defeated USA is still capable of being a strong and viable nation, so there's not as much to say unless one wants to balkanize it.

Well, the problem is that any realistic scenario sees the USA build up against the CSA for another war that would happen sooner or later and the CSA goes blooey. A scenario where a short-lived CSA collapses after a second war is a pretty interesting AH in its own right.

There is no prohibition on industrialization in the Confederate Constitution.

Nah, it was only understood as this at the time. The CSA fights a war to defeat "wage slavery", wins the war, and decides to adopt the social system it fought against? That's like turning the USSR into an ultra-libertarian cyberpunk state in the 1920s.

Let's save everyone some time, because this always pops up when people have these debates every two weeks or so:



There is no "Thou shalt not industrialize" clause in the Confederate Constitution. That said, the clause quoted above sharply decreases the likelihood of any sort of successful industrialization by a victorious CSA.

And in any alternate CSA, the planters will resist tooth and nail industrialization with much greater effect without the USA states to help bolster Southern advocates of industrialization. I've never understood the rationale whereby a state of slaveholders, by slaveholders, for slaveholders, less the cornerstone of race-relations perish from the Earth suddenly turns into a miniature example of a society its victory over would seem to confirm, not disprove, the notion that slavery is a superior economic system to capitalism.

It's akin to Vladimir Lenin and Josef Stalin turning the USSR into a cyperpunk corporate-run state in the 1920s.
 
There is no prohibition on industrialization in the Confederate Constitution.

Actually, I wonder if CSA products would be great whipping boys for protectionists everywhere.

I am picturing Randolph Churchill's "Loaf of Bread" speech. "What is the difference between Southron bread and Anglo-Saxon bread?" "The bread of the English farmer did not come from the sweat of others!"
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top