Confederate Industrial centers.

I really believe that the focus on the cotton planters is the wrong. For native industrial entrepreneurship of the CSA will come from the upper south states Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky if it joins the south after the war. These states are already the have 90% of the CSA's industry and also have the planters with money that are not tied up in cotton because it wont grow in these states well enough for them to compete with the Deep south. The Tobacco planters are the ones who will have everything to gain by going into industry since tobacco will never surpass cotton in price and was and still is subject to random price drops and inflation, which is why these areas are so poor today in short there is little money in tobacco.

this doesnt mean that all of the industry will be located in theses states but the people who will run the industry will come from there.

Also
Slavery ending in the CSA wont make the planter class give up their plantations and go into steel. The new freed blacks would go from Slaves to Freemen forced to be tenant farmer on the old plantation like what happened during the reconstruction period and the century following the end of the war in the OTL. If anything they be getting a better deal since the slaves that they use to have to house and feed now have to do that for themselves as well as pay the planters rent.
 
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CSA Constitution 9.9.4

(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

The whole issue of free states is pointless the CSA constitution make it illegal for a free state to exist with in the CSA
 
The whole issue of free states is pointless the CSA constitution make it illegal for a free state to exist with in the CSA

Nothing is keeping individual CS states from abolishing slavery. The CS central government can't do anything about it. CS federal territories must hold slavery, but the second they are admitted as states they can abolish slavery within their boundaries.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Nothing is keeping individual CS states from abolishing slavery. The CS central government can't do anything about it. CS federal territories must hold slavery, but the second they are admitted as states they can abolish slavery within their boundaries.
What does this useless technicality accomplish? What will stop another Lecompton fiasco? It is a Confederal right to keep slaves.
 
What does this useless technicality accomplish? What will stop another Lecompton fiasco? It is a Confederal right to keep slaves.

It is also a right for an individual state in the CSA to abolish slavery while still respecting the slave property of slaveowners in other states.

Okay, Wolfpaw, put up or shut up, where in the Constitution of the Confederate States of America does it say that it is a permanant right to keep slaves?

Outside of the statutes that say slave property must be protected in sojourn, where does it say that slavery can't be abolished ever, I want you to prove it, no quoting the Cornerstone Speech or anything, just where in the CONCS?
 

Flubber

Banned
Okay, Wolfpaw, put up or shut up, where in the Constitution of the Confederate States of America does it say that it is a permanant right to keep slaves?


Right here in Article I Section 9.2:

(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

The sections says "no bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law" and not "no nationwide bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law".

It is long past time for YOU to put up or shut up and I'm surprised that none of the other posters here haven't called you on this already.

In all my decades of reading on the topic, I have never run across the interpretation of Article I Section 9.2 which you are presenting in your several tedious threads. Never.

Let us set aside your incomprehension of the Dred Scott case and your incomprehension regarding the term "sojourn". Let us deal with your interpretation of Article I Section 9.2 alone: That the section in question only applies to the Confederate national government.

Provide us with one cite from a reputable historian or legal expert which supports your interpretation. Just one cite, that's all, and most of the contention in these threads will vanish.

Can you provide it? Or is all this just based on your own opinion?
 
Right here in Article I Section 9.2:



The sections says "no bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law" and not "no nationwide bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law".

It is long past time for YOU to put up or shut up and I'm surprised that none of the other posters here haven't called you on this already.

In all my decades of reading on the topic, I have never run across the interpretation of Article I Section 9.2 which you are presenting in your several tedious threads. Never.

Let us set aside your incomprehension of the Dred Scott case and your incomprehension regarding the term "sojourn". Let us deal with your interpretation of Article I Section 9.2 alone: That the section in question only applies to the Confederate national government.

Provide us with one cite from a reputable historian or legal expert which supports your interpretation. Just one cite, that's all, and most of the contention in these threads will vanish.

Can you provide it? Or is all this just based on your own opinion?

The part of the CS Constitution you quote is in the section of the document that outwardly limits what the CSA's Central Government can and can not do. Nothing is preventing individual states form abolishing it. You provide a cite disproving it.

Why does this part of the CONCS always keep saying "Congress" not "State", could you provide that answer?

I've seen nothing so far that contradicts my arguement that individual CS states could abolish slavery. One historian I'd quote on it is Marshall DeRosa (although I don't have his book "The Confederate Constitution of 1861: An Inquiry into American Constitutionalism" yet). Who is your historian Edward H. Sebesta? :rolleyes:

Also, the second a sojouring slaveowner buys land in a CS free state, he must give up his slaves.

Confederate States Constitution said:
Confederate States Constitution

Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.
(2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.
(3) The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
(5) No capitation or other direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration hereinbefore directed to be taken.
(6) No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any State, except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses.
(7) No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one State over those of another.
(8) No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of the receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.

(9) Congress shall appropriate no money from the Treasury except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses, taken by yeas and nays, unless it be asked and estimated for by some one of the heads of departments and submitted to Congress by the President; or for the purpose of paying its own expenses and contingencies; or for the payment of claims against the Confederate States, the justice of which shall have been judicially declared by a tribunal for the investigation of claims against the Government, which it is hereby made the duty of Congress to establish.




 

Flubber

Banned
One historian I'd quote on it is Marshall DeRosa (although I don't have his book "The Confederate Constitution of 1861: An Inquiry into American Constitutionalism" yet).


I asked for a reputable authority, Reggie, and not some assclown who ran for the Senate as a Constitution Party candidate. The man even writes for the Mises Institute. :rolleyes:

For those members who aren't familiar with the Constitution Party here is a link to their platform. It's the usual mish-mash of far right Bible-thumping, anti-abortion, anti-Federal Reserve, state nullifcation, and most of the other usual hobbyhorses with a thin veneer of libertarianism applied as camouflage. They're the ideological descendants of movements like the Know Nothings and Free Silverites.

You're going to have to come up with another cite, a reputable cite this time, one that is employed widely, and not some lunatic fringe college professor. Try again.

Oh, and as for your "explanation" about how free states could exist in the CSA because a "sojourn" somehow has a time limit or residency requirement, you're deliberately ignoring the huge loopholes involved. Huge loopholes that the South argued for and won in the Dred Scott case, by the way.

As was pointed out over 150 years ago and as been studiously ignored by you, I could own slaves in a slave state and then rent their labor to someone in a free state. I haven't moved to the free state so the free state's laws don't apply to me and the man in the free state using the slaves labor doesn't own them so his state's laws don't apply to him either. Neat trick, huh? And the South couldn't wait to use it along with all the other loopholes Taney gave them with his decision.
 

Flubber

Banned
And just to give our google-deficient members some idea of the man Reggie is citing, here's a book review penned by Dr. DeRosa:

George Fletcher’s efforts can be viewed most profitably as an unmasking of U.S. constitutional development. Consider the title of his new work Our Secret Constitution. Within the U.S. political tradition, doesn’t a “secret constitution” appear oxymoronic? If it is secret, who are the individuals privy to the secret? Moreover, in what manner and to what extent does the secret constitution displace popular control and consent over the public policy? And finally, what about issues of legitimacy and political obligation? Contrary to the claim that Supreme Court activism under the leadership of activists represents the policy preferences of the majority (see Lucas A. Powe, The Warren Court and American Politics [Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 2000]), the enforcement of a secret constitution that empowers a concealed cabal of decision makers at the expense of popular control is a major break from traditional U.S. constitutionalism. Not only does it permit the usurpation of national and state legislative prerogatives, but it bestows tremendous power on judges whose talents range from mediocre to dismal.


Concerns such as these, however, do not deter Fletcher. In his mind, the secret constitution is a classic example of the ends justifying the means. As he makes clear, egalitarianism is the desideratum of the secret constitution, and the courts are the most reliable conduits for the implementation of an egalitarian agenda. Not to be mistaken for the Fourteenth Amendment’s mandate of equality before the law, his equality is an ideologically driven constitutional equality legitimating activist government and the politics of substantial redistribution. Fletcher hits the mark when he credits Abraham Lincoln with redefining American democracy, thereby setting aside the traditional U.S. rule of law that valued liberty, order, and justice when it obstructed the quest for egalitarianism. He is far from accurate, however, when describing Lincoln’s derailment of the traditional constitutional system as the honorable act of a decent man. Yes, Lincoln “redefined American democracy,” as Fletcher’s subtitle suggests and as his text reiterates again and again, but the origins of that redefinition notwithstanding (see Thomas J. DiLorenzo, The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War [Roseville, Calif.: Prima, 2002]), Fletcher understands its consequences for current public policy. He seeks to displace the type of liberty that accommodates an unequal distribution of wealth with a leveling type of equality as the foundation of American republicanism. His endgame is not the Fourteenth Amendment’s equality before the law, but rather an economic equality that the framers of the Constitution would have found abhorrent. The book is essential reading not because of its historical views or interpretations of the Constitution, federalism, and U.S. jurisprudence, which are deficient, but because it is a revealing prescriptive tract of the liberal/radical agenda to transform the U.S. rule of law as a bulwark of private property and personal liberty into an instrument of government redistribution and social leveling. Moreover, as recent developments dating back to the Warren Court make clear, time and the courts are on Fletcher’s side.


Fletcher depicts the Constitution of 1789 as the guarantor of an elitist government that must be overcome. The war between North and South was a major step in overcoming the original Constitution and the elites it protects (p. 3) This lesson is an important one for the Lincolnphiles to learn. In speaking of Lincolnphiles, I have in mind not the historical Lincoln, but the ahistorical, messianic Lincoln promulgated by Harry Jaffa and his disciples. Jaffa’s Lincoln is a man committed to higher law and determined to atone for America’s sin of slavery and discrimination by supplanting the original Constitution with higher-law doctrines. However, one must be cautious in concluding that Lincoln would recognize himself in the picture Fletcher paints. The postmodern higher-law doctrines Fletcher advances are not necessarily compatible with Lincoln’s nineteenth-century worldview. Nevertheless, it is abundantly clear that Lincoln’s policies and rhetoric made Fletcher’s agenda not only possible, but increasingly probable of successful implementation. Jefferson Davis and the Confederate States of America were so committed to traditional U.S. constitutionalism that Fletcher’s agenda and similar agendas would have had no success if the Confederacy had survived. Therein lies the real tension between the North and South of the 1860s: limited versus unlimited government.


In promoting his ideologically driven jurisprudence that stands in opposition to traditional U.S. rule of law, Fletcher offers a highly imaginative interpretation. For example, the Thirteenth Amendment stipulates that “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude … shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” According to Fletcher, “the issue of economic discrimination … had never received due attention from the Supreme Court… . As race came center stage in the truncated area of ‘equal protection,’ the Supreme Court would ignore the tragedies of the states’ toleration of wealth and class discrimination… . Other countries have confronted the problem of wealth discrimination as an aspect of their commitment to equality. It will eventually be incumbent on the Supreme Court to do the same” (pp. 139–40). Fletcher surmises that an unequal distribution of property runs afoul of the Thirteenth Amendment’s prohibition against involuntary servitude because if “servitudes should be understood as relationships of domination, then an open-ended approach to the concept would have generated a watchdog role for the federal government in inspecting and supervising private relationships of potential exploitation and domination… . [The national] government [should be] the guarantor of equality and non-domination” (p. 140).


The problem with the antebellum South and the Confederate States of America, according to Fletcher, was the commitment to the original Constitution, which precluded the sort of national centralization requisite to displacing liberty with equality and, among other things, to empowering the Supreme Court with legislative capabilities. Ignoring a slew of case law to the contrary, Fletcher nevertheless condemns the postbellum Supreme Court for being too Confederate. In postbellum America, “[l]egalism prevailed. The legal philosophy of the Confederacy triumphed, both in substance and in style” (p. 139).


Praising a type of abstract justice “that inspired Marx” in an age “overflowed with vision—but not in the Supreme Court,” Fletcher criticizes the Supreme Court for its reactionary tendencies (pp. 120–21) Consider his analyses of the Supreme Court’s postbellum case law. On the surface, his analysis appears to be sympathetic to liberty, specifically the liberty of individuals to pursue their respective trades without state interference, but his real targets are the states’ police powers and free enterprise. He contends that this “was a period when the Court was much more concerned about the rights of economic competitors than about the dignity of individuals” (p. 171). Upholding the dignity of individuals requires that the Court move beyond race and into the realm of wealth discrimination. The Court must apply strict scrutiny, the highest standard, to issues of wealth discrimination. Replacing the rational-basis test—which permits state policies that tolerate distinctions between rich and poor in education, housing, travel, health care, and so forth—with strict scrutiny would make the poor (whom Fletcher never precisely defines) a suspect class and entitled to equal benefits. Pointing to German Basic Law as a model for U.S. courts to follow, Fletcher advances a “legal system [that] includes the furthering of equality in income and wealth … [and] the leveling of differences in welfare and opportunity” (p. 159).


Fletcher’s quest to twist the U.S. Constitution to conform to a Rawlsian theory of egalitarian justice, his attempt to square the circle, results in fundamental inconsistencies. For example, on the one hand he maintains that “the rule of law requires, of course, courts that enjoy respect and legitimacy” (p. 257), but on the other he praises Lincoln for his treatment of Chief Justice Taney’s efforts to enforce habeas corpus (p. 167). He advocates human dignity but espouses a coercive form of government capable of denying individuals the fruits of their labors. He gives lip service to democratic ideals while promoting a form of centralization incompatible with popular control and consent. Moreover, one must not assume that the centralization he advances stops at national borders. His operative theoretical assumptions blanket the human family with a visionary egalitarian ideal of global redistribution.


The value of Our Secret Constitution is twofold: first, it inadvertently indicts Lincoln for the overthrow of the original constitutional order of states’ rights federalism, separation of powers, checks and balances, and the traditional U.S. rule of law; and second, it adumbrates how the new constitutional order is increasingly compatible with a system of egalitarian social justice that is inherently hostile to the rights of property and limited government.


Marshall DeRosa
Florida Atlantic University
 
I asked for a reputable authority, Reggie, and not some assclown who ran for the Senate as a Constitution Party candidate. The man even writes for the Mises Institute. :rolleyes:

For those members who aren't familiar with the Constitution Party here is a link to their platform. It's the usual mish-mash of far right Bible-thumping, anti-abortion, anti-Federal Reserve, state nullifcation, and most of the other usual hobbyhorses with a thin veneer of libertarianism applied as camouflage. They're the ideological descendants of movements like the Know Nothings and Free Silverites.

You're going to have to come up with another cite, a reputable cite this time, one that is employed widely, and not some lunatic fringe college professor. Try again.

Oh, and as for your "explanation" about how free states could exist in the CSA because a "sojourn" somehow has a time limit or residency requirement, you're deliberately ignoring the huge loopholes involved. Huge loopholes that the South argued for and won in the Dred Scott case, by the way.

As was pointed out over 150 years ago and as been studiously ignored by you, I could own slaves in a slave state and then rent their labor to someone in a free state. I haven't moved to the free state so the free state's laws don't apply to me and the man in the free state using the slaves labor doesn't own them so his state's laws don't apply to him either. Neat trick, huh? And the South couldn't wait to use it along with all the other loopholes Taney gave them with his decision.

You said the CS individual states couldn't abolish slavery, I posted the part of the CS constitution you cite for it, and all that part of it's constitution cites is that the Confederate Central Government can't touch the slave issue.

Alright then, you show me what "sojourn" means in the fridge logic negaverse you live in.

I openly challenged you to disprove what I stated by citing somebody could DISPROVE what I stated who isn't some neo-lib yankee like "creator of the Anti-Confederate Flag" Ed Sebesta, still doesn't disprove that the North violated the Constitution beforehand, and STILL doesn't disprove that individual CS states could abolish slavery within their boundaries.

What is wrong with being a PaleoConservative? Huh? What is wrong with any of that other stuff you shout about how much Constitutionalists suck, which has only bearing on the author, the only one I could find that would back up the claim that CS states could abolish slavery individually under the CS Constitution, YOU haven't provided any sources otherwise. All you did is quote and cherry pick one part of the CS constitution that if you look at it in context is in the part of the document that outright limits and allows the rights of the Confederate Congress.
 
You said the CS individual states couldn't abolish slavery, I posted the part of the CS constitution you cite for it, and all that part of it's constitution cites is that the Confederate Central Government can't touch the slave issue.

Alright then, you show me what "sojourn" means in the fridge logic negaverse you live in.

I openly challenged you to disprove what I stated by citing somebody could DISPROVE what I stated who isn't some neo-lib yankee like "creator of the Anti-Confederate Flag" Ed Sebesta, still doesn't disprove that the North violated the Constitution beforehand, and STILL doesn't disprove that individual CS states could abolish slavery within their boundaries.

What is wrong with being a PaleoConservative? Huh? What is wrong with any of that other stuff you shout about how much Constitutionalists suck, which has only bearing on the author, the only one I could find that would back up the claim that CS states could abolish slavery individually under the CS Constitution, YOU haven't provided any sources otherwise. All you did is quote and cherry pick one part of the CS constitution that if you look at it in context is in the part of the document that outright limits and allows the rights of the Confederate Congress.

Electing a President with the full legitimacy of the Electoral College is violating the Constitution?

yeahbuhwhat.jpg
 
Electing a President with the full legitimacy of the Electoral College is violating the Constitution?

yeahbuhwhat.jpg

Actively breaking THIS is:

United States Constitution. Article IV said:
“No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due.”
 

Flubber

Banned
You said the CS individual states couldn't abolish slavery, I posted the part of the CS constitution you cite for it, and all that part of it's constitution cites is that the Confederate Central Government can't touch the slave issue.


It states "no law", Reggie, not "no national law". That entire section speaks about both national and state laws, so claiming that one section refers to the national government alone is selective reading.

Alright then, you show me what "sojourn" means in the fridge logic negaverse you live in.

Sojourn means precisely what the South celebrated after the Dred Scott decision and exactly what the South explicitly enshrined it it's constitution, that you can go anywhere you want for as long as you want with your slaves and neither federal, state, or local authorities can do a thing about it. You may only be able to purchase slaves in certain jurisdictions, but once they're your "property" they cannot be touched in any manner.

I openly challenged you to disprove what I stated by citing somebody could DISPROVE what I stated who isn't some neo-lib yankee...

How about Douglas Freeman or Shelby Foote? Surely they don't fall into your "neo-lib yankee" category.

By the way, I'm not a "yankee" and you're not a "confederate". We're both Americans and the sooner we stop attempting to demonize each other with idiotic names from 150 years ago in order to score points in some political fantasy the sooner this nation may start working again.

What is wrong with being a PaleoConservative? Huh?

Nothing at all. It just puts your statements in context. You're not here to examine the counterfactual aspects of history, you're here to grind ideological axes instead.

... the only one I could find that would back up the claim that CS states could abolish slavery individually under the CS Constitution...

Don't you think it's telling that the only author you could find to back up that claim is an ideology-besotted assclown like DeRosa?

All you did is quote and cherry pick one part of the CS constitution that if you look at it in context is in the part of the document that outright limits and allows the rights of the Confederate Congress.

Read the whole document again, Reggie. It enumerates and limits the rights of the individual Confederate states just as often. When it speaks about states alone it explicitly says so, when it speaks about the national government alone it explicitly says so, and when it mentions neither the text covers both.

The South had been furious for decades about vague wordings in certain parts of the US Constitution because that vagueness was used to support various actions the South was wholly against. If you read any work on the Confederate constitution it is remarked that the writers of that document took great care in removing any vagueness and the writers themselves said as much at the time. Just follow that link another poster kindly provided if you don't believe me.

The fellow comparing the two constitutions side by side remarks repeatedly that the Confederate version of this section or that section differs from the Federal version because the writers of the Confederate version took pains to remove any doubt as to the meaning of each section. Because of the zeal they exhibited in writing that document as clearly as possible, claiming as you do that Article I Section 9.2 only refers to the national government when it does not mention the national government is nothing but selective reading on your part.

Ironically enough by selectively reading the section in question, you're playing as fast and loose with the Confederate constitution as the South claimed the Union had done with the US Constitution.

Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.
 
In an 1862 CSA victory scenario, the Southern slave-agriculture system has obviously proved itself superior to the Americans and their factories. The South would have no incentive to industrialize, and absolutely no reason to abandon it's raison d'etre, slavery.

Especially since slavery is enshrined in the CSA Constitution.
 
Ah, but there's the whole problem of State's Rights, given the existence of these:

http://leahsuhrstedt.com/personalliberty/


Some PalaeoCon you are supporting the right of the Federal government to stomp all over state's rights when you disagree with the rights of those states in particular situations.

Oh, last I checked I thought it wasn't a state's right to violate the Constitution as the North so outrightly did, I thought it wasn't a problem in your book that the North lionized outright murderers like John Brown.

Last I checked, I believe in the right of secession, something the North fought to destroy and coerce states back into the Union. Or is it not "American" to respect property rights as they were seen in that time period. And yet you still apply modern morality to it.

http://www.etymonline.com/cw/northrace.htm

http://www.etymonline.com/cw/secession.htm

And you didn't bother to read that link on Kentucky, did you?

It states "no law", Reggie, not "no national law". That entire section speaks about both national and state laws, so claiming that one section refers to the national government alone is selective reading.

It state's "no law" in a part of the CS constitution that dictates the actions of what Congress can do. You must be the one doing all the "selective reading" if you can't see it for yourself since I posted that part section of the CS Constitution in it's entirety, if they meant to say that no state could abolish slavery they would have included "state" somewhere in that clause, but all they talk about it Congress.

Flubber said:
Sojourn means precisely what the South celebrated after the Dred Scott decision and exactly what the South explicitly enshrined it it's constitution, that you can go anywhere you want for as long as you want with your slaves and neither federal, state, or local authorities can do a thing about it. You may only be able to purchase slaves in certain jurisdictions, but once they're your "property" they cannot be touched in any manner.

They have as much a right to "Sojourn" and transit their slaves in free states in the CSA as much as they had the right to in the Union, as I told Johnrankins. A Kentucky slaveholder in Ohio doesn't make Ohio a slave state.

Flubber said:
How about Douglas Freeman or Shelby Foote? Surely they don't fall into your "neo-lib yankee" category.

While I happen to like Shelby Foote, I don't believe he has ever said anything to the extent that individual CS States couldn't abolish slavery.

Flubber said:
By the way, I'm not a "yankee" and you're not a "confederate". We're both Americans and the sooner we stop attempting to demonize each other with idiotic names from 150 years ago in order to score points in some political fantasy the sooner this nation may start working again.

I'm a decendant of Kentucky Confederates, the more I hear the words "traitor", and "slave beating racist" to describe them and then when Northerners thump their chests and crow about how southerners are so stupid and how their history is so perfect, I think it warrants me to call ilk like that "yankees".

Flubber said:
Nothing at all. It just puts your statements in context. You're not here to examine the counterfactual aspects of history, you're here to grind ideological axes instead.

Me? I'm the one grinding ideological axes?:

Flubber said:
Just how is that going to happen? Slavery is enshrined in the Confederate constitution as is the free movement of "property" within the CSA. No state would be able to legislate emancipation or even enforce emancipation within it's borders and, thanks to many other mechanisms placed in the same constitution for this very reason, emancipation isn't going to occur at the CSA's "federal" level without a super-majority.

You've been given quite a few mulligans in this thread already, especially concerning railroads, Mexican land purchases, and Texas oil, but this latest claim stretches all credulity.

I post something that is, I dunno, something like "Alternate History" not "CSA gets starships or something". I posted a fact about the CS constitution, and you jump all over it saying things that the CS constitution didn't say. Like I said, emmancipation is NEVER going to occur at the CSA's Federal Level, but there is nothing holding back State-By-State emmancipation.


Flubber said:
Don't you think it's telling that the only author you could find to back up that claim is an ideology-besotted assclown like DeRosa?

You didn't cite or show anything to disprove it outside of how you just casually call an author you disagree with (even if said author has a good point) an "assclown", that is only telling of you.

Flubber said:
Read the whole document again, Reggie. It enumerates and limits the rights of the individual Confederate states just as often. When it speaks about states alone it explicitly says so, when it speaks about the national government alone it explicitly says so, and when it mentions neither the text covers both.

What? Outside of not letting non-Confederate citizens to vote in Confederate elections? Even though the section that we have been argueing about for nearly 2 days only references and states what the CS Congress can and CAN NOT DO? And you take it as "oh, state can't do it either" while the CS Constitution never said that?

Flubber said:
The South had been furious for decades about vague wordings in certain parts of the US Constitution because that vagueness was used to support various actions the South was wholly against. If you read any work on the Confederate constitution it is remarked that the writers of that document took great care in removing any vagueness and the writers themselves said as much at the time. Just follow that link another poster kindly provided if you don't believe me.

And I'm aware that it was, I have read the Fillibustercartoons assessment of both quite a bit, it doesn't even say that individual CS states couldn't abolish slavery in it's own assessment, it states that the CSA's central government can't, and on that point, it is right. But other than that, that link doesn't state that CS states can't abolish slavery, so what's your point?

Flubber said:
The fellow comparing the two constitutions side by side remarks repeatedly that the Confederate version of this section or that section differs from the Federal version because the writers of the Confederate version took pains to remove any doubt as to the meaning of each section. Because of the zeal they exhibited in writing that document as clearly as possible, claiming as you do that Article I Section 9.2 only refers to the national government when it does not mention the national government is nothing but selective reading on your part.

While all of Section 4 of the CS Constitution (which includes the slavery clause, if you didn't happen to notice) states again and again what Congress can and CAN NOT DO, that includes no Preference given to any Regulation of Commerce, no suspension of Habeas Corpus, no taxes or duties laid on preference to any particular state, no appropriating money from the Treasury except by a vote, the ability to raise and maintain a milita, no Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, and of course, no national level abolition of Slavery.

How am I the one "selectively reading" if I'm the one reading it in the black and white text it was wrote in? That the CS Central government COULD NOT, SHALL NOT, MUST NOT, and WILL NOT abolish slavery on the national level, at no point in the CS Constitution does it EVER state that individual CS states could not do it.

Flubber said:
Ironically enough by selectively reading the section in question, you're playing as fast and loose with the Confederate constitution as the South claimed the Union had done with the US Constitution.

I'm not the one selectively reading it. I'm reading it full text to where it does not say at any point that individual states could not give up slavery. Read it yourself, it doesn't say anything about CS state governments abolishing slavery.

Flubber said:
Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.

Speak for yourself.
 
In an 1862 CSA victory scenario, the Southern slave-agriculture system has obviously proved itself superior to the Americans and their factories. The South would have no incentive to industrialize, and absolutely no reason to abandon it's raison d'etre, slavery.

Especially since slavery is enshrined in the CSA Constitution.

Since CS states could abolish slavery, I don't see a problem with it.

Oh yeah, and the Boll Weevil will be knocking on the CSA's door earlier than OTL's South if that's the case, we'll see how many opinions change in TTL. And at that point industries had popped up in the CSA in it's war for independence, the seed has been planted.
 
Since CS states could abolish slavery, I don't see a problem with it.

Oh yeah, and the Boll Weevil will be knocking on the CSA's door earlier than OTL's South if that's the case, we'll see how many opinions change in TTL. And at that point industries had popped up in the CSA in it's war for independence, the seed has been planted.

Nah as the Flubber demonstrates, slavery was permanently enshrined+ in the CSA Constitution and states could not abolish slavery. And frankly, why would they? And your 1862 CSA win scenario makes it even less likely, as the Yankee industrial system has proven no match for the vastly superior Southern slave-agriculture system. I find it similar to the Southern reaction to the Panic of 1857 when they saw in it the superiority of its own system compared to the North.

Unless the South becomes independent after a long war where large portions of the country get occupied and literally get sense beaten into it by the North, then they will not change from the 1860 slave agriculture status quo at all.

+Assuming a Constitutional amendment doesn't get passed. But why would they?
 
Nah as the Flubber demonstrates, slavery was permanently enshrined+ in the CSA Constitution and states could not abolish slavery. And frankly, why would they? And your 1862 CSA win scenario makes it even less likely, as the Yankee industrial system has proven no match for the vastly superior Southern slave-agriculture system. I find it similar to the Southern reaction to the Panic of 1857 when they saw in it the superiority of its own system compared to the North.

Unless the South becomes independent after a long war where large portions of the country get occupied and literally get sense beaten into it by the North, then they will not change from the 1860 slave agriculture status quo at all.

+Assuming a Constitutional amendment doesn't get passed. But why would they?

There is nothing preventing individual state-by-state abolition in the CSA, I dare you to prove otherwise, but don't use Article 4 of the CS constitution, that only dictates what the CS Congress can do, that doesn't count as "enshrining" that counts as "taking it out of the national scope and making it a state issue" or is that not "PC" to say that?

And trust me, when the CSA gets the Boll Weevil in the 1890s (possibly earlier) then state-by-state abolition will kick into action fairly quick.

BUT THEY CANT! Saying tthey could over and over again will not change the fact that abolishing slavery anywhere in the country is impossible!

An individual state abolishing slavery in the CSA isn't prohibited, I dare you to try and prove that outside of using Article 4 of the CS constitution, which does NOT prove your point in any way.
 
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