Confederate California

In the civil war California was pro-southern, but didn't secced. The southern half had wanted to gain territorial status so they could then gain statehood as a slave state. What if during the civil war the southern half of California broke away from the northern half and became South California and then secceds from the union? How useful would southern california be to the confederacy? What might be its capital?

A couple of things I notice for this would be that it would provide a supply of gold for the confederates. It would also take soldiers away from the eastern theater in order to fight in the west. This also would give the Confederacy a reason to take the New Mexico Territory. A succesful Confederacy with South California wouldn't need to buy or go to war with Mexico in order to get access to the pacific.

How does this scenario sound? How plausible is it?

Thoughts and Opinions.
 
The majority of the population, according to what I read when visiting the California Military Museum in Sacramento, was from the North, and California raised at least 2 regiments of Cavalry that ended up fighting Indians and helping to deal with the Confederate invasion of New Mexico. A large number of volunteers (I don't remember the exact figure) went east, most of whom served in the Union Army. I can't imagine many of the Hispanic Californians being too excited about slavery either, but they would likely have remained neutral in the fight. Most of the population at that time lived in northern California, and that is also where all the gold and silver was located (from NV mines for the silver and it was transported down to Sacramento and then by river boat to San Francisco for shipment by merchant ships).

So the real wealth is securely in Yankee hands, and the pro-Southerners did not have the numbers to take it away. San Francisco is also where most of the weapons were located (artillery, large stands of rifles etc), while the only sizeable military presence in the southern California region was a few posts keeping an eye on the Fort Tejon Indian reservation and various outposts in the Mojave Desert. Not much for the Rebels to grab there.

IF the Rebels had won the New Mexico campaign however, they might have been able to get some troops to southern California and then made a real fight of it. Ultimately they would have lost though as even during the Civil War large numbers of people moved west to California, Oregon and Colorado (and points in between) from the Union. Another possibility is the Confederacy making some kind of deal with the Mormons, which would have forced the US government to deal with them too. But only if the CSA won in New Mexico.

link to the California Military History museum, which is a woefully small building in Old Town Sacramento. Worth a visit though if you happen to be in the area.

http://www.militarymuseum.org/
 
California was not pro-South before or during the ACW. There were individuals that were pro-South and did hope to either disrupt the Union cause in California or attempt to carve out their own pro-South state or nation. However, they were in the clear minority.
 
67th, actually California was able to send thousands of troops east very early in the war so it's safe to say that pro-secessionists were not very numerous or this would not have been done.

Voting for Douglas or Bell does not make a person pro-CSA and those two plus Lincoln received the vast majority of the votes in California in 1860.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
67th, actually California was able to send thousands of troops east very early in the war so it's safe to say that pro-secessionists were not very numerous or this would not have been done.

Voting for Douglas or Bell does not make a person pro-CSA and those two plus Lincoln received the vast majority of the votes in California in 1860.

Never sent any troops east. The California Regiments garrisoned CA.

Edit: not strictly true, the 1st and 5th California, a battery of artillery and a few companies of cavalry (1,400 all ranks and arms) did campaign in NM.
 
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Most of the regular units in California(and Oregon and Washington Territory) headed east by the end of summer 1861, although generous estimates of these forces is barely 3000 strong. Also California units did indeed fight east of the Mississippi.

And, as I noted, Confederate sympathies in California were rather less than overwhelming.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Most of the regular units in California(and Oregon and Washington Territory) headed east by the end of summer 1861, although generous estimates of these forces is barely 3000 strong. Also California units did indeed fight east of the Mississippi.

Which one's?

I assume you mean the "California Regiments" raised in the east, whose names were not because they were Californian, but rather they were raised to garrison California (but never went, a rather tricky recruiting ploy mostly).
 
This is from Wikipedia, but it seems to be lifted word for word from the little book I picked up at the California Military musuem so I will go with it (as I don't have any readily available references to use other then that).


"In 1862, five companies of the 2nd Massachusetts Cavalry (also known as The California 100 and the California Cavalry Battalion) were enrolled and mustered into service, and sent to Massachusetts They left San Francisco by sea for service in the east. The California Battalion consisted of Companies A, C, F, L, and M. They participated in 51 battles, campaigns, and skirmishes

In October 1861, Colonel Baker was authorized to increase his command to a brigade. The additional regiments were commanded by Colonels Joshua T. Owen, Dewitt Clinton Baxter, and Turner G. Morehead, all from Philadelphia, respectively designated the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th California Regiments. The 4th California Regiment, as planned, was composed of artillery and cavalry. These troops were soon detached. After Baker was killed in the Battle of Ball's Bluff, Pennsylvania claimed these four infantry regiments as a part of its quota, and they became known as the "Philadelphia Brigade" of Pennsylvania Volunteers. They were initially commanded by Brig. Gen. William W. Burns and first served in John Sedgwick's Division of the II Corps, Army of the Potomac. They had a distinguished service career, highlighted by their actions at the Battle of Antietam and their prominent position in the defense against Pickett's Charge at the Battle of Gettysburg.

The units recruited for service inside California included two full regiments and one battalion of cavalry, eight full regiments of infantry, and one battalion of infantry called mountaineers. The California Troops, known as the California Column, were under the command of General James H. Carleton and were composed of the 1st Regiment of Cavalry, 1st Battalion of Native Cavalry, and the 1st, 5th and 7th Infantry Regiments, which served in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

The 2nd Regiment of California Cavalry and the 3rd Regiment of California Infantry under P. Edward Connor kept the overland route to California open. As a matter of Connor's proactive style, he led these troops to attack and massacre Shoshoni Indians at the Bear River Massacre Site in what is now Idaho, on January 29, 1863.[8]

The 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th California Infantry Regiments and the 1st Battalion of Mountaineers provided internal security in Northern California, Oregon, and Washington by preventing Indian attacks. The First Regiment, Washington Territory Infantry Volunteers, had eight companies that were recruited for service in California.[9]

Military units associated with California included:
I am not a big fan of wikipedia, but at least in this case the information is copied verbatim from the official California history.

From other sources on the Navajo Wars I have read that Carleton used the California column (see above) to crush the Navajo under the overall command of Kit Carson during the Civil War period.

Carleton was a ruthless man, but his leadership did result in the destruction of Confederate supplies that made their retreat after their defeat in New Mexico a death march for many.
 

TheCrow__

Banned
in my CSA wins TL I been working on I am making Mojave(South California) a state along with New Mexico and Arizona but the way I've accomplished this is that Britain and France send troops to help the Confederacy win and then USA is forced to recognize the CSA and sign a treaty which says all territory below the 37th N parrallel is CSA territory
 
I think it would have been possible, Southern California especially the LA area was quite pro-Southern and had the Confederate sympathizers taken some drastic action (like violent revolt) or received support from the South they could have broke Southern California from the Union.
 
Carleton was a ruthless man, but his leadership did result in the destruction of Confederate supplies that made their retreat after their defeat in New Mexico a death march for many.

I think you are confusing James Carleton with John Chivington. Chivington destroyed the Confederate supply train at the Battle of Glorieta Pass, not Carleton.

Carleton and the California Column did not have any effect on the retreat of the Confederate forces from New Mexico. They got hung up in western New Mexico (i.e. what is now Arizona) by a tiny Confederate command (about 75 men) lead by Captain Sherod Hunter. It seems Carleton had a purchasing agent gathering supplies, principally grain, for his expedition at some Pima Indian villages on the Gila River, between what is now Phoenix and Tucson. Captain Hunter rode up there from Tucson, confiscated all the grain, and gave it all back to the Indians. When the Californians got there, they found no food supplies waiting for them, and the Indians wouldn't trade with the Californians unless they offered manta, a specific kind of trade cloth. So the Californians basically had to halt their advance, and send back to California for manta to trade with the Indians, that process taking about a month. By the time the Californians got moving again, it was mid-May, and the Confederates in eastern New Mexico had already successfully retreated back to Las Cruces and were on their way out of New Mexico back to Texas.

I happen to be a historian of the Southwest campaigns. If you are interested, you can read some interesting articles here.
 
I think you are confusing James Carleton with John Chivington. Chivington destroyed the Confederate supply train at the Battle of Glorieta Pass, not Carleton.

Carleton and the California Column did not have any effect on the retreat of the Confederate forces from New Mexico. They got hung up in western New Mexico (i.e. what is now Arizona) by a tiny Confederate command (about 75 men) lead by Captain Sherod Hunter. It seems Carleton had a purchasing agent gathering supplies, principally grain, for his expedition at some Pima Indian villages on the Gila River, between what is now Phoenix and Tucson. Captain Hunter rode up there from Tucson, confiscated all the grain, and gave it all back to the Indians. When the Californians got there, they found no food supplies waiting for them, and the Indians wouldn't trade with the Californians unless they offered manta, a specific kind of trade cloth. So the Californians basically had to halt their advance, and send back to California for manta to trade with the Indians, that process taking about a month. By the time the Californians got moving again, it was mid-May, and the Confederates in eastern New Mexico had already successfully retreated back to Las Cruces and were on their way out of New Mexico back to Texas.

I happen to be a historian of the Southwest campaigns. If you are interested, you can read some interesting articles here.

your right, my mistake... although both were rather nasty to their enemies
 

67th Tigers

Banned
essentially it requires a Confederate victory in New Mexico, and then, maybe, the Rebels have a chance in California.

The easiest PoD is that AS Johnson's morals are a bit lower. The pro-Confederates were pleding with him to throw open the armouries, but he stayed loyal to the Union (and hence favoured the nativists) right up until his resignation.

In that PoD, there's a short, sharp civil war in CA, which will certainly see southern CA admitted to the CSA.
 
The easiest PoD is that AS Johnson's morals are a bit lower. The pro-Confederates were pleding with him to throw open the armouries, but he stayed loyal to the Union (and hence favoured the nativists) right up until his resignation.

In that PoD, there's a short, sharp civil war in CA, which will certainly see southern CA admitted to the CSA.

Dang, never even thought of that one. That would make for an interesting timeline.
 
Except that assumes that Johnson's officers and men follow him in trying to seize an area which voted overwhelmingly against secession, which is not certain.*

That pro-Union forces, including the navy and other army units in Oregon and various territories don't go along, not to mention the pro-Union majority.

Lastly that the alleged pro-secessionist forces actually prove capable of doing anything, bearing in mind that throughout the ACW pro-secession/CSA forces repeatedly turned out to be worthless when it came to actual action. The classic being the Midwest in 1864 where organizations with 200,000(!) members were asked if 500 would actually be willing to take action, for just a few days. Nope.

In this case all Johnson has to do is violate his oath, convince his officers and men to do the same, seize the arsenals and other major military bases while dispersing the elected state government and any opposition forces in which case the pro-CSA forces may join the winning side to some degree.:rolleyes:

Far more likely in this event is that the Union retakes whatever the CSA took west of Texas in 1862 as the CSA simply doesn't have a viable supply line in this area while the image losing such a large area might be a problem for the CSA, not to mention trying to seize an area where 90% of the voters went against secession candidates in 1860. Going for southern California, of course, effectively endorses West Virginia and invites further efforts in eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina among others.


*As for Johnson's morals, they were not so readily apparent in his handling of the so-called Mormon War against Utah and there is some evidence that he may have been forced to abandon his stated intentions towards the Mormons under duress from his own subordinates. All history knows for certain is that:

A) Johnson announced his intentions to occupy Salt Lake City as his capital and place the territory under martial law.

B) Brigham Young, who had thus far avoided direct military confrontation, vowed that his patience was also about to end.

C) By all accounts eyewitnesses thought this was indeed about to explode into a full-blown shooting war.

D) The next day Johnson led his troops into Salt Lake City and then led them right out again without the slightest warning that he had changed his mind about a military occupation and giving an impression of a man who was very angry about the actions he was taking that day.

E) The senior officers in Johnson's force, all northern or Union-sympathizers, itself unusual given the percentage of southern officers, were inveterate diarists and yet strangely none ever felt the need to write about that night and why what he announced publicly one day, in front of journalists and a representative from President Buchanan, was the opposite of his actual actions on the next.
 
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