WI the Confederacy and Germany had an alliance into WW 2 and won because of less U.S. involvement in Europe? What would the world be like from 1945-2004?
Confederacy/Nazi Empire
- Thread starter ConfederateFly
- Start date
David S Poepoe
Banned
Sorry, a Nazi-Confederate Alliance will not last anyway. In fact, while the Germans may have an easier time in general in Europe, the Confederacy will be easily beaten by the United States. Population and industrial odds heavily favor the North. Besides, what the Confederacy do without fear of a slave uprising? Besides why will the Confederacy ally itself with Germany? This appears to be a strictly Turtledovian concept. Don't try adding anything about a Featherstone Presidency either, try to show an ounce of originality for once. From all appearances the Confederacy would most likely be just as isolationalists as the US, perhaps more so.
Could there be like in 1895 GB and France stop buying Confederate Goods and Germany picks up the slack then they form an alliance in WW 1 with a sort of Zimmeran Telegram and they are defeated. They recieve harsh reparations and the Confederacy has to emancipate slavery over 25 years. They are embroiled and when Hitler comes to power the make a pact and start building up there militaries. If Hitler won early in Europe cou;d he be able to help the Confederacy? U.S. would also be fighting in Japan b/c there will still be a Pearl harbor sort of fiasco.
In all likelihood, this would never occur for two reasons:
A) By 1939, the USA and CSA would probably be allies. The two nations would be so completely alike (by this time, slavery in the CSA would be gone), that it would be hard for the two nations NOT to be allies. It'd be similar to the relationship between the US and Britain over the years...
B) If the CSA won the Civil War, circumstances would change and Hitler would never rise to power. In fact, in 1939, Kaiser Wilhelm II or III would be running the show in Germany as, in order for the CSA to achieve independence, it would heavily rely on European (i.e. British and French) help. The two European countries and the USA would be much more economically and militarilly drained that they would not win WWI, if WWI did, in fact, occur in this ATL.
A) By 1939, the USA and CSA would probably be allies. The two nations would be so completely alike (by this time, slavery in the CSA would be gone), that it would be hard for the two nations NOT to be allies. It'd be similar to the relationship between the US and Britain over the years...
B) If the CSA won the Civil War, circumstances would change and Hitler would never rise to power. In fact, in 1939, Kaiser Wilhelm II or III would be running the show in Germany as, in order for the CSA to achieve independence, it would heavily rely on European (i.e. British and French) help. The two European countries and the USA would be much more economically and militarilly drained that they would not win WWI, if WWI did, in fact, occur in this ATL.
David S Poepoe
Banned
ConfederateFly said:
If this had happend the Confederacy would have had to emancipate the blacks immediately, not over 25 years. They lost and so they lose big.
Brilliantlight
Banned
David S Poepoe said:
Because both the Confederacy and Nazi Germany were highly racist regimes. Both depended heavily on slave labor and felt that God made them superior to other people. Nazi Germany took it to a farther extreme then the Confederacy but Nazi Germany would likely be different as well. Maybe to keep the Confederacy on their side they merely enslave the Jews instead of killing them. Since Jews are white but another faith the Confederacy may or may not approve of that.
David S Poepoe
Banned
Brilliantlight said:
Your partially wrong. The Germans didn't depend upon slave labor until after the outbreak of the war. I doubt the Nazi's will modify their political and racial stance for a nation which certainly can be of no use to them. What can the Confederacy do for them pre-1939? And who will declare themselves an ally once the war breaks out, various other nations in Europe were pulled in against their will.
Maybe share some secrets of the U.S. with spies so if the U.S. gets involved then the Germans have something against them. these could be some allies of Nazi Germany and the Confederacy: Italy, Spain, Japan, Mexico.
industries
While the Southerners had some problems with the Northerners Industries and tariffs via versa the prices northern industries paid for the southern goods. As the north Industrialized and became the worlds largest market, The southern producers would force the CSA ecomony more in sync with the USA. I see this occurring by the end of the 1800's, even sooner that the Canadain merger after WW1. When the Free Trade Talks Start in the 1910's, the CSA would Join, even if Canada stays out as per OTL, thro with the CSA to balance the USA, it would be more likely for Canada to Join in TTL, Along with Maybe Cuba.
There Fore by the end of the Great War, NA would be a unified Ecomonic Unit even as the parts celabrate their political Seperation.
While the Southerners had some problems with the Northerners Industries and tariffs via versa the prices northern industries paid for the southern goods. As the north Industrialized and became the worlds largest market, The southern producers would force the CSA ecomony more in sync with the USA. I see this occurring by the end of the 1800's, even sooner that the Canadain merger after WW1. When the Free Trade Talks Start in the 1910's, the CSA would Join, even if Canada stays out as per OTL, thro with the CSA to balance the USA, it would be more likely for Canada to Join in TTL, Along with Maybe Cuba.
There Fore by the end of the Great War, NA would be a unified Ecomonic Unit even as the parts celabrate their political Seperation.
no money
once again, the fact is ignored that the south had no capital to work with, and a war (even a successful one) would have left them with even less. The south as a whole simply didn't have the capital to industrialize. Assuming an independent CSA, just where does the money come from? Britain and France? If so, what happens to history with all that money going to the CSA (i.e., what aren't they spending it on that they did in OTL?)?
once again, the fact is ignored that the south had no capital to work with, and a war (even a successful one) would have left them with even less. The south as a whole simply didn't have the capital to industrialize. Assuming an independent CSA, just where does the money come from? Britain and France? If so, what happens to history with all that money going to the CSA (i.e., what aren't they spending it on that they did in OTL?)?
NapoleonXIV
Banned
..uh..maybe...but by that reasoning how does any non-industrialised area industrialise? Doesn't capitalism feed on itself?. Successful business needs more stuff and so on an on (not that simple I know, but...). If you have a resource base then only 'seed' money is needed. The South is certainly industrialised now in OTL, how did they do it?
In OTL we have Taiwan, not half the size or resource base of the American South, we have Korea, we have Japan. All were completely destroyed by war and had expended all their capital. All are industrial powerhouses not much more than 50 years later. Highly different history and circumstances I realize, but I see the priniciples as very similar.
In OTL we have Taiwan, not half the size or resource base of the American South, we have Korea, we have Japan. All were completely destroyed by war and had expended all their capital. All are industrial powerhouses not much more than 50 years later. Highly different history and circumstances I realize, but I see the priniciples as very similar.
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Brilliantlight said:
The Confederacy definitely would not approve of murdering Jews. Jews were a very influential and well-respected community in the South, and Jews held high positions in the Confederate government (Judah P. Benjamin being the most prominent example, of course).
David Howery said:
I think you over-estimate the problem. After their experience in the war, the Confederate government will recognize the need to industrialize, and will take whatever steps are necessary to do so. As to where they will get the capital, the Confederacy will earn the money by trading. I think it likely that a strong textile industry will develop there rather quickly, with the competitive advantage of locally produced cotton, which will capture a major share of world markets. Also, low Confederate tariff rates will divert most, if not all, of the trade going into Northern ports to Confederate ports (a major reason why the Lincoln Administration decided to oppose secession and go to war in OTL), which means that Confederate tariff revenues will be quite high, even with a low tariff rate. With the revenues from these two sources, they could invest in other industries as well (steel in Alabama, for example).
I'll second that! If a society really wants to industrialize, it will. Denmark is a rather good example, I should think! We have absolutely no natural resources (before oil was found in the 1960-70s) except farmland and good fishing. The government went bankrupt during the Napoleonic wars (in wich we lost Norway too) and we lost some 1/3 of out population and the most industrialized part of the country (Schleswig-Holstein) in 1864. Nonetheless Denmark today is a very modern society with a solid industrial base etc etc, so I think it can be done...robertp6165 said:
Best regards!
- Bluenote.
Regarding industrialisation, short-term Britain and France would be happy to provide loans - the banks of the latter have already provided some unofficially, and the surest way to get the money back is to develop the economy so it can produce future gain.
You can also look at the example of Russia in OTL - in the period up to 1914 foreign capital was helping Russia expand its industries and grow its economy greatly, but the French estimated that by the mid 1920s there would be no need for Russia to be reliant on outside investment as it would have achieved a self-sustainable economic growth that would thereafter pay for itself, as well as generate capital to pay back loans etc
In addition, in the long term, if the Confederacy retains good relations with Mexico and with France then there is a lot of outside investment that the CSA's OWN industries can make in Mexican raw materials, which in turn would boost the Confederate economy
Grey Wolf
You can also look at the example of Russia in OTL - in the period up to 1914 foreign capital was helping Russia expand its industries and grow its economy greatly, but the French estimated that by the mid 1920s there would be no need for Russia to be reliant on outside investment as it would have achieved a self-sustainable economic growth that would thereafter pay for itself, as well as generate capital to pay back loans etc
In addition, in the long term, if the Confederacy retains good relations with Mexico and with France then there is a lot of outside investment that the CSA's OWN industries can make in Mexican raw materials, which in turn would boost the Confederate economy
Grey Wolf
If the Confederacy entered the war on behalf of the Nazis would the Confederacy invade Mexico in a campaign similiar to the Germans in OTL north africa?
ConfederateFly said:
Umm...Were you reading what everyone has said? The CSA WOULD NOT side with a Nazi Germany. And if it were to, it would foster Mexico's support in order for their natural resources.
Brilliantlight
Banned
robertp6165 said:
I was talking about enslaving them instead but from what you said it is rather doubtful.