Computer science in a Babbage's Engine TL

So, I was browsing wikipedia about Turing Machines, and - no! Wait! Come back!

...

Anyways, I was thinking about the way math and science have developed. in most - almost all - cases, the math required for a theory occurs well before the science catches up. Maxwell's equations are based on calculus that was well understood by the time he formulated them; quantum theory is based on all sorts of funky math - advanced calculus, matrices, etc - that were inventedwell before 1900. When you get things where the math doesn't exist, as with fractals and chaos, and the physical theories based thereon - the theory doesn't show up until after the math. It worked this way with computer science, as well: you have things like Hilbert's formallism, Church's Lambda Calculus, Turing machines - all setting up a strong conceptual foundation for computing long before the physical machines started appearing.

But.

Babbage came up with the Analytical engine - fully functional Turing machine, assuming it was ever built - way back in the first half of the 19th C. This is long before any of the developments above - Hilbert was 9 at Babbage's death, none of the others were even born yet - and there was almost literally none of the conceptual basis for computing then. Would this have stunted the development of the new field of mechanical computing? Prompted earlier and faster developments in information theory? None of the above? Any thoughts?
 
Well I always thought that the engine would accelerate scientific development...either directly by computing or indirectly by accelerating war technology by helping to work out artillery trajectories....well you know where im going with that tangent.

But thats the view of a member ignorant of a lot of computer science. Im deeply interested in other, inevitably better conclusions....any would help enourmously toward further formulation of my TL.....

Yeah, it might - but it might also depend on what the 'Engine is seen as being capable of. The use of computers sped up artillery table construction immensely, etc etc - but that was just a speeding-up of stuff people could already do. Ditto for logarithm tables and the like - and there's a limit to how many digits you really need for any real-world calculation, too. the big advance with computng was the ability to simulate real-world events (which came into the fore in the 60s). in the 1840s? Hard to say how long it would take them to realise the 'Engine is more than a glorified abacus, especially with no real conception of the general applicabilities of a Turing Machine.

Still - I'd be glad to help with your TL if applicable. Is it the one in your sig?
 
Yep it is....so far the only application I have thought up for the Analytical Engine in my TL is sticking them on ships so as to calculate highly accurate artillery trajectories, accounting for the shaking of the ship that is....[facepalms at such an admission of lack of computing knowledge.....wonder he can even type.....:eek:]

I know very little about computers, but I doubt the difference engine would be useful in that function because it is comparatively slow, and here speed is at a premium.

If you're looking for ideas, you might do worse than get a copy of GURPS: Steampunk Catalog, a roleplaying book with equipment based on the usual genre conventions. I would think these engines to be more useful for bulk data analysis and retrieval, performing complex but generic equations (like artillery trajectories from a stable base or stellar navigation) and engineering applications.
 
Computer Science student here. :)

I imagine that if computer technology continued immediately after Babbage, instead of stopping for decades, computers would advance a bit before hitting a brick wall. Looking at the Analytical Engine, it had all the components necessary for a modern computer (Von Neumann architecture); it was able to store numbers, had input/output, and an ALU and CPU (the mill). The language used for it was Turing-Complete, which basically means that it can do any sort of computation that a modern computer can do. The main thing that would limit its usefulness is speed; mechanical computers aren't nearly as fast as electronic, and are much larger by necessity (and think of how large early computers were, even with the use of electricity). The technology needed to make electronic computers wouldn't exist until at least the late 19th century, and to get to the next level (transistors instead of vacuum tubes) would require manufacturing technology that wasn't even close to existing at the time.
 
Computer Science student here. :)

I imagine that if computer technology continued immediately after Babbage, instead of stopping for decades, computers would advance a bit before hitting a brick wall. Looking at the Analytical Engine, it had all the components necessary for a modern computer (Von Neumann architecture); it was able to store numbers, had input/output, and an ALU and CPU (the mill). The language used for it was Turing-Complete, which basically means that it can do any sort of computation that a modern computer can do. The main thing that would limit its usefulness is speed; mechanical computers aren't nearly as fast as electronic, and are much larger by necessity (and think of how large early computers were, even with the use of electricity). The technology needed to make electronic computers wouldn't exist until at least the late 19th century, and to get to the next level (transistors instead of vacuum tubes) would require manufacturing technology that wasn't even close to existing at the time.

Interesting. Victorians were into brute-force engineering, so I could see all kinds of high-powered solutions being tried (radical miniaturisation, hooking machines up to increasingly powerful engines). Computing could become a very dangerous business with a syntax error at 500 horsepower.

Another thing I imagined - and I have no idea how practical that is - is using smart computers to build dumb ones. Engineers would design a growing number of mechanical 'computers' that could do only one thing, but that speedily and well. Some ideas I had were a pantograph with a memory/retrieve function, an anthropometric measuring engine for police ID procedure, or a navigation computer (input date and GMT, select a number of celectial bodies, measure position and angle above the horizon, get latitude and longitude).
 
It wasn't so much the speed as the accuracy of the machines that would make them so useful.

But, personally, I think they might speed things up for a while, then actually retard development... :eek:
 
Given the rather limited capacity possible with mid to late 19th century technology an AE is likely to be limited to government and academic number crunching (Census data, logarithmic charts etc.) but if the usefulness of the early AEs provokes more research into complex mechanical devices you may see a rise in dedicated devices. Automated pneumatic post switcher, Jaquet-Drozesque automated drafter, an automatic Linotype and printing machine, perhaps some early form of machine tool etc. Put together an auto-drafter/printer a simple engine with a telegraph link to the local university mainframe engine and you have the makings of an early BBS and reference system. The side effect of this may be that more emphasis is put on building less powerful dedicated systems that do one thing well then more powerful (and more expensive) general purpose machines.
 
Another thing I imagined - and I have no idea how practical that is - is using smart computers to build dumb ones. Engineers would design a growing number of mechanical 'computers' that could do only one thing, but that speedily and well. Some ideas I had were a pantograph with a memory/retrieve function, an anthropometric measuring engine for police ID procedure, or a navigation computer (input date and GMT, select a number of celectial bodies, measure position and angle above the horizon, get latitude and longitude).
I think that's a really interesting & very likely outcome. For the 'Engine proper, a few things come to mind: weather modelling/meteorology (very rudimentary OTL), aerodynamic research, & engineering. Assume a few are built for census taking & such, the price drops out of the stratosphere, a handful of universities (Oxbridge, Yalvard, McGill:D) buy them, the price drops a touch more, wealthy dilettantes are able to afford them. Could Cayley have built a successful aircraft? Could a steam engineering company have developed better boilers? Could shipping lines have designed better ships? Could arsenals have created better artillery? Could the Weather Network get the forecast right more than 3 days in advance?:rolleyes: (Probably not...:p)

As for knock-on effects? Simplified "GPS", maybe. Or, in the same vein, INS, making cruise missiles & IBMs easier much sooner.:eek: Might see improvements in naval firecontrol much sooner, leading to pressure towards the "all big gun" ship, ironcladding, Ericsson turrets...& something like an 1860s/1870s equivalent of Dreadnought. With better ability to put artillery fire on a known point, there might have been a drive to do it repeatably, leading to the introduction of hydraulic recoil mechanisms (so no need to re-lay the gun after every shot:eek:). You might also see improvements/innovations in fortification, such as early ferroconcrete, or early trenches, as defenses. With the appearance of hydraulic recoil mechanisms & improved accuracy, forward arty spotters could become much useful, leading to the possibility of early telephone/radio comm. And radio means a much easier ability to intercept, leading to the likes of Room 40 or OP-20-G, and a demand for signals security, leading to the likes of Enigma... Also, greater accuracy implies better counterbattery fire, so improved mobility of artillery becomes essential, so steam SPGs are likely, & given the need to cross rough terrain, something like caterpillar tracks, too...
perhaps some early form of machine tool etc.
I like this one a lot, too. Early robotic mass production? Given physical strength is less important, earlier recognition of female equality?

Couple "dumber" engines with telegraphy, could you see something like telepresence ("waldos")? If so, I imagine improved mine safety, better tunnelling (& so better/safer sewers, subways, bridges), cheaper sewer repairs (& less failure due to slack maintenance:eek:), safer handling of hazardous materials, safer/better minefield clearance, safer/better bomb disposal...
 
Last edited:
Just my two cents: considering the timeframe of the 1840s-50s, I'd presume versions of the 'Engine would be pressed to service in the supporting tasks of the railway system, especially for the huge task of calculating the inter-company balances for the various railway companies in the Railway Clearing House as well as for timetables etc. This would, in turn, push forward the development of scientific, computerized logistics and economic planning - allowing of course military applications.
 
Top