Composite TL II
- Thread starter DominusNovus
- Start date
AFAIK, nobody else took them. It'd be interesting to see Lombardy in Germany, or Austria.Diamond said:
Kingdoms of Tolouse and Vasconia
Alright sorry guys-
Kingdom of Tolouse and Kingdom of Vasconia: Basically Alaric will attempt to maintain peaceful relations with all nations until his death in 515. His son Gesalec takes the throne and reigns uneventfully until 536 when he starts the war with the Suevi, who have been raiding the Visigoths in Spain. Massive trading with Vasconia (the Basques) leads the two nations together so the Vasconians send mercenaries to help the Visigoths in Sueviland. An elite Basque unit is founded earning a tough reputation. Gesalec dies in 545. his son, Wamba takes the throne.
By the way, I think Alaric ii, or his sons would be interested in harmonizing the arian faith with catholocism. They would also like to keep close relations to their cousins the ostrogoths just over the water.
Alright sorry guys-
Kingdom of Tolouse and Kingdom of Vasconia: Basically Alaric will attempt to maintain peaceful relations with all nations until his death in 515. His son Gesalec takes the throne and reigns uneventfully until 536 when he starts the war with the Suevi, who have been raiding the Visigoths in Spain. Massive trading with Vasconia (the Basques) leads the two nations together so the Vasconians send mercenaries to help the Visigoths in Sueviland. An elite Basque unit is founded earning a tough reputation. Gesalec dies in 545. his son, Wamba takes the throne.
By the way, I think Alaric ii, or his sons would be interested in harmonizing the arian faith with catholocism. They would also like to keep close relations to their cousins the ostrogoths just over the water.
How might we harmonize Arianism with Catholicism. If the Catholics reject the Deity of Christ, it's not Catholicism, and if the Arians start believing in the Deity of Christ, it's not Arianism.
Hmm...perhaps the new Gothic Church endorses the Deity of Christ, but is far more decentralized and less wealthy than the Catholic Church (Arius himself criticized Constantine for his corruption of the church with $$ and power). Perhaps there's even separation of Church and State; as part of the compromise, reformers could look back and praise the purity of the early Church with its unworldly outlook. A new age of religious liberty?
"They would also like to keep close relations to their cousins the ostrogoths just over the water."
Also, I'd heard of an AH scenario of "a unified Gothic empire in the Western Mediterranean." Might the Visigothic and Ostrogothic polities merge at some point? Perhaps some sort of "Gothic nationalism" arises or the two have to join together to fight an outside foe (possibly the Arabs, or a steppe horde like the Magyars).
Hmm...perhaps the new Gothic Church endorses the Deity of Christ, but is far more decentralized and less wealthy than the Catholic Church (Arius himself criticized Constantine for his corruption of the church with $$ and power). Perhaps there's even separation of Church and State; as part of the compromise, reformers could look back and praise the purity of the early Church with its unworldly outlook. A new age of religious liberty?
"They would also like to keep close relations to their cousins the ostrogoths just over the water."
Also, I'd heard of an AH scenario of "a unified Gothic empire in the Western Mediterranean." Might the Visigothic and Ostrogothic polities merge at some point? Perhaps some sort of "Gothic nationalism" arises or the two have to join together to fight an outside foe (possibly the Arabs, or a steppe horde like the Magyars).
i don't see what their problem was the arians weren't all that different. here let me quote:
"Arius taught that Jesus was like God, but not fully the same as God, because God had neither a beginning nor an end, but there was a time when Jesus the Son did not exist. This, in Arius’ eyes meant that Jesus was essentially different than God the Father, though also essentially different than humans. Arius taught that Jesus was the perfect image of God (while humans are imperfect images of God)."
maybe if we stress at the same time jesus' divinity as well as his humanity both sides can be helped. it seems today most only stress his divinity...or am i wrong.
"Arius taught that Jesus was like God, but not fully the same as God, because God had neither a beginning nor an end, but there was a time when Jesus the Son did not exist. This, in Arius’ eyes meant that Jesus was essentially different than God the Father, though also essentially different than humans. Arius taught that Jesus was the perfect image of God (while humans are imperfect images of God)."
maybe if we stress at the same time jesus' divinity as well as his humanity both sides can be helped. it seems today most only stress his divinity...or am i wrong.
How 'bout we wait on mucking around with religion (and prompting schisms with traditionalists like me) till we're a bit further into the TL?cow defender said:
"How 'bout we wait on mucking around with religion (and prompting schisms with traditionalists like me) till we're a bit further into the TL?"
But religious developments will likely have an effect on the development of the Gothic state(s) and that'll in turn affect our scenario, even in its broadest outlines (who wars with whom and who wins). Some of it at least needs to be hashed out in advance.
But religious developments will likely have an effect on the development of the Gothic state(s) and that'll in turn affect our scenario, even in its broadest outlines (who wars with whom and who wins). Some of it at least needs to be hashed out in advance.
Okay I read up and here is my Idea. OTL Alaric II was peaceful guy who was trying to gain the good will of his catholic subjects. He had a treaty with Clovis I of the franks and he was content to remain at peace. Eventually Clovis however wanted to gain more land and loot. Despite Theodric (Ostrogoths ruler who was Alaric father in law) attempt at keeping the Visigoths and Franks from war, they eventually did ending with the Frankish victory at the Campus Vogladensis, near Poitiers, where Clovis is said to have personally killed Alaric in combat.
What we do is this. Theodric succedes. Franks stay at peace with the Visigoths(Perhaps a minor land concession. I got to get something from the deal .) and instead go to war with the Burgundians( this would end up happening in the 520's Otl). The fact the Burgundians are Arians will be good enough reason for war(it was the stated reason for war with the Visigoths).
So to Sum it up. Theodric in Italy trying to bring Arianism more into line with the Catholic Church. War is averted beteen Visigoths and Franks after Alaric agrees to support Theodric attempt at bring the Arians more into line with the Catholic Church. The Frankish hordes go to war with the Burgundians for being filthy Heretics, and are defeated spectacuarly.
And perhaps the Saxons in Britain and Germany start raiding the franks land. Franks go to england and with the support of the local catholic populace(Saxons where arian) the Saxon in england are dealt a fatal blow.
It needs fleshing out and dates but hows that sound.
What we do is this. Theodric succedes. Franks stay at peace with the Visigoths(Perhaps a minor land concession. I got to get something from the deal
.) and instead go to war with the Burgundians( this would end up happening in the 520's Otl). The fact the Burgundians are Arians will be good enough reason for war(it was the stated reason for war with the Visigoths).So to Sum it up. Theodric in Italy trying to bring Arianism more into line with the Catholic Church. War is averted beteen Visigoths and Franks after Alaric agrees to support Theodric attempt at bring the Arians more into line with the Catholic Church. The Frankish hordes go to war with the Burgundians for being filthy Heretics, and are defeated spectacuarly.
And perhaps the Saxons in Britain and Germany start raiding the franks land. Franks go to england and with the support of the local catholic populace(Saxons where arian) the Saxon in england are dealt a fatal blow.
It needs fleshing out and dates but hows that sound.
Focus on the Franks man. Let the other guys decide what the Goths are gonna do.Justin Green said:Okay I read up and here is my Idea. OTL Alaric II was peaceful guy who was trying to gain the good will of his catholic subjects. He had a treaty with Clovis I of the franks and he was content to remain at peace. Eventually Clovis however wanted to gain more land and loot. Despite Theodric (Ostrogoths ruler who was Alaric father in law) attempt at keeping the Visigoths and Franks from war, they eventually did ending with the Frankish victory at the Campus Vogladensis, near Poitiers, where Clovis is said to have personally killed Alaric in combat.
What we do is this. Theodric succedes. Franks stay at peace with the Visigoths(Perhaps a minor land concession. I got to get something from the deal
So to Sum it up. Theodric in Italy trying to bring Arianism more into line with the Catholic Church. War is averted beteen Visigoths and Franks after Alaric agrees to support Theodric attempt at bring the Arians more into line with the Catholic Church. The Frankish hordes go to war with the Burgundians for being filthy Heretics, and are defeated spectacuarly.
And perhaps the Saxons in Britain and Germany start raiding the franks land. Franks go to england and with the support of the local catholic populace(Saxons where arian) the Saxon in england are dealt a fatal blow.
It needs fleshing out and dates but hows that sound.
I'll be putting up a chronology for the byzantines pretty soon.
Sorry I just thought that was what people where saying they wanted. I was just offering a solution. Its not my decision thats why it was only a proposal. I dont mean to piss you off.
Diamond
Banned
Justin:
I think the Franks invading Burgundian lands instead of Hispania is a good idea (does anyone have the Burgundians?). If they are successful it will put more hostile forces between Visis and Ostros, which will almost force V and O to cooperate at some point in the future to stop the possibility of Frankia expanding to the Med and cutting off overland trade routes between Hispania and Italy.
If all Theoderic is required to do is act as moderator between Clovis and Alaric, I'm all for it. I won't be sending troops to help anyone though.
I think the Franks invading Burgundian lands instead of Hispania is a good idea (does anyone have the Burgundians?). If they are successful it will put more hostile forces between Visis and Ostros, which will almost force V and O to cooperate at some point in the future to stop the possibility of Frankia expanding to the Med and cutting off overland trade routes between Hispania and Italy.
If all Theoderic is required to do is act as moderator between Clovis and Alaric, I'm all for it. I won't be sending troops to help anyone though.
I think at this point, the Burgundians were very distinguishable from the Franks.Diamond said:Justin:
I think the Franks invading Burgundian lands instead of Hispania is a good idea (does anyone have the Burgundians?). If they are successful it will put more hostile forces between Visis and Ostros, which will almost force V and O to cooperate at some point in the future to stop the possibility of Frankia expanding to the Med and cutting off overland trade routes between Hispania and Italy.
If all Theoderic is required to do is act as moderator between Clovis and Alaric, I'm all for it. I won't be sending troops to help anyone though.
They eventually fail to the Franks, and not to far off inthe future. They were Arrians so the the local populace will like me more than them. In fact they succesively revolted once only because they had troops from Ostrogothian Italy. Perhpas this can avoided, no?
Justin Green said:
Sorry. Been working out my job training while simultaneously trying to save my Bro-in-law's chances at the job.
Ain't being vague about your life a great way to make it seem more interesting and dramatic?
Though I am looking into early 6th century Byzantium. I haven't found any nice neat little chronologies, which annoys me, but oh well. I still have the Roman Emperor site.