Completly Different Colonial Powers
- Thread starter Osk
- Start date
With a POD that far back (and assuming that the final contact is at roughly the same time as colombian contact), you could have a completly different set of powers capable of exploiting the colonization, which would be dependent on the POD. Therefor, speculation is going to be rather open-ended and vague unless more is known on the nature of europe. That said, some thoughts on your proposed candidates.
Al-Andalus: To a degree this depends on when and what the divergence is. An Al-andalus along the lines of the later realm is far weaker and caught up in a war for survival with the christian states. But an al-andalus which is able to hold the entire penninsula, or one that manages to isolate and dominate the christian kingdoms without fragmenting, could very easily find itself colonizing the americas.
Brittany: Possible, at least in terms of discovery (some theories say that Breton fisherman reached north america pre-colombus). Some minor colonization is possible, but I dont see anything on the scale of the Spanish, Portuguese, or British empires happening simply because brittany has far fewer resources available to subjugate a continent.
Aragon: Possible, but I would guess not. Any surviving Aragon will probably have no small maritime power, but that power is most likely going to be directed by geography into the (eastern and central) mediterranean. Colonization is possible, but i dont see this getting as much attention as it could.
Galicia: Similar to brittany. Discovering the americas is possible, but I dont see Galicia/Asturias/Leon being able to forge a true empire as we saw IOTL unless it can establish itself as the preeminent power on the Iberian penninsula. That said, it could probably carve out a decent sized territory in the western hemisphere.
Its funny because i was bored and did a map that was supposed to be in 1900 alternate time line where there are only European Colonial Powers besides a few small nations and Japan who decided to modernize as soon as they made contact with Europeans. What possible POD, I have no idea, it is pretty ASB, but still it has some alternate colonial powers. Here's the map:
True, for Aragon, Al-Andalus, or Galicia too expand, they could not exist together. So Maybe in the Al-Andalus TL, It takes over all of Iberia, except for maybe norhtern Aragon. In Galicia, Galicia-Leon Galicia could be the pre-dominant power, then when joining Castile it becomes the Crown of Galicia not Castile? Then it could join up with Portugal or something? For Aragon, before a Castile Leon jointment, an Aragon Castile joinment, which then during a war with Leon take it?
Reminds me of an EU3 game where I played as Britanny and colonized most of North America.
Is the POD something like French victory in the war of Spanish sucession and personal union with ita crown?
The main problem is than then we would have Spain with another name, not a new colonial power. The sucession of Hispania/Asturias/Galicia/Leon/Castille/Spain is basically the same nation changing names as it reconquered more land, with the ocasional add-on (like Aragon) or break (Portugal). Yes, some of those were kingdoms at the same time -but as a result of a king splitting his nation in two for his children, and a couple generations later the kingdoms would be rejoined
I never really thought of it as anything more then out of random boredom, but that would work now that I think of it.
How about a Frankish Empire where the Carolingians abandoned partible inheritance?
Charlemagne leaves his empire to Louis The Pious (Louis I) but Louis leaves the Empire in the hands of only one of his three sons.
Say the Carolingians (and their successor dynasties) eventually conquer the whole of the Iberian peninsula, the Italian peninsula, central Europe and the Baltic. Maybe they conquer Britain as well and forge a strong centralized empire along dynastic lines that eventually rules over the whole of western Europe, including Scandinavia, where they first learn of lands to the west, through the viking sagas.
Eventually, Constantinople falls and new routes to the far east are needed.
The reigning emperor has two choices: Try and conquer the east and retake the old Byzantine Empire or look for another route. By the time Constantinople falls, Maderia, The Azores and Canary Islands have been discovered.
Are we to assume Henry the Navigator just becomes some complacent noble just because he's not a king? Doubtful, men of such curiosity will always seek to satisfy such curiosity, be it within their means or through sponsors.
Perhaps Henry finances the initial expeditions (Or in this world embarks upon them himself!) which yield the fruits of discovery and the possibility of new lands for the Empire. Perhaps the Emperor decides that there may be more to gain through exploration than through a costly and bloody war against the Turks.
The Emperor has to keep his options open on the eastern front, but Henry's discoveries and this "Vinland" he's read about have peaked his interest. He sponsors more voyages, south, along the African coast at first, opening up sea lanes to the far east there, but eventually, Columbus is going to show up in his court and propose a passage to the east by sailing west. The Emperor takes a chance on an expedition and Columbus delivers to him a "New World".
There's billions of things that could go wrong in a timeline like this, that spans so many centuries and so much history. Maybe the Frankish Empire never makes it that far, bogged down and defeated by the Moors in Iberia, or in the frozen north or the Baltic region after which a slow decline and rampant infighting eventually tear the whole empire appart.
But if they survive into the Age of Discovery, they'd be THE colonial power, as far as Europe's concerned.
It'd make for an interesting story though: Templars or Teutonic Knights taking the role of the Conquistadores, discovering the strange new civilizations of Meso and South America, the great explorers competing with one and other for the Emperor's favor (and funding) or perhaps finding private investors and commercial interests to bankroll their voyages and colonies.
If there's a Reformation (and there probably would be) the wars that went with them could end up being waged all over the globe, with "Reformist Colonies" and "Imperial Colonies" setting up alliances with the indigenous peoples of the different colonial hot spots.
Charlemagne leaves his empire to Louis The Pious (Louis I) but Louis leaves the Empire in the hands of only one of his three sons.
Say the Carolingians (and their successor dynasties) eventually conquer the whole of the Iberian peninsula, the Italian peninsula, central Europe and the Baltic. Maybe they conquer Britain as well and forge a strong centralized empire along dynastic lines that eventually rules over the whole of western Europe, including Scandinavia, where they first learn of lands to the west, through the viking sagas.
Eventually, Constantinople falls and new routes to the far east are needed.
The reigning emperor has two choices: Try and conquer the east and retake the old Byzantine Empire or look for another route. By the time Constantinople falls, Maderia, The Azores and Canary Islands have been discovered.
Are we to assume Henry the Navigator just becomes some complacent noble just because he's not a king? Doubtful, men of such curiosity will always seek to satisfy such curiosity, be it within their means or through sponsors.
Perhaps Henry finances the initial expeditions (Or in this world embarks upon them himself!) which yield the fruits of discovery and the possibility of new lands for the Empire. Perhaps the Emperor decides that there may be more to gain through exploration than through a costly and bloody war against the Turks.
The Emperor has to keep his options open on the eastern front, but Henry's discoveries and this "Vinland" he's read about have peaked his interest. He sponsors more voyages, south, along the African coast at first, opening up sea lanes to the far east there, but eventually, Columbus is going to show up in his court and propose a passage to the east by sailing west. The Emperor takes a chance on an expedition and Columbus delivers to him a "New World".
There's billions of things that could go wrong in a timeline like this, that spans so many centuries and so much history. Maybe the Frankish Empire never makes it that far, bogged down and defeated by the Moors in Iberia, or in the frozen north or the Baltic region after which a slow decline and rampant infighting eventually tear the whole empire appart.
But if they survive into the Age of Discovery, they'd be THE colonial power, as far as Europe's concerned.
It'd make for an interesting story though: Templars or Teutonic Knights taking the role of the Conquistadores, discovering the strange new civilizations of Meso and South America, the great explorers competing with one and other for the Emperor's favor (and funding) or perhaps finding private investors and commercial interests to bankroll their voyages and colonies.
If there's a Reformation (and there probably would be) the wars that went with them could end up being waged all over the globe, with "Reformist Colonies" and "Imperial Colonies" setting up alliances with the indigenous peoples of the different colonial hot spots.
Dr. Strangelove
Banned
One of my projects (before I became embroiled in A Timeline Too Big And Detailed To Even Consider A Finishing Date) was a timeline in which Galicia instead of Portugal became independent in the 11th century, became a major trading center in the 13th due to A Coruña becoming a member of the Hansa and discovered America around 1400. It also became embroiled in Ireland during the Renaissance starting a centuries-long rivalry with England. IIRC, butterflies included Italy getting united by Venice in 1300, Ukraine and not Russia becoming the dominant power in the East and other assorted random craziness.
IIRC, South America was colonized by Spain in its entirety (Spain being OTL Spain minus Galicia plus all of Portugal south of the Tajo. Portugal never existed); while North America was colonized by Italy (Quebec), Britain (New England) and Galicia (Dixie, Mexico and the Caribbean). It never got past the stages of random ideas, and probably never will, though.
IIRC, South America was colonized by Spain in its entirety (Spain being OTL Spain minus Galicia plus all of Portugal south of the Tajo. Portugal never existed); while North America was colonized by Italy (Quebec), Britain (New England) and Galicia (Dixie, Mexico and the Caribbean). It never got past the stages of random ideas, and probably never will, though.
1. It's not a timeline.
2. With a POD of the early 9th century, I'm not so sure most of what I mentioned would exist (The Templars, The Teutonic Order, Vikings even making it to Iceland, let alone Vinland, depending on when the Franks head north, Colombus, etc...) so what's your point?
The Sandman
Banned
Burgundy.
Any of the larger or richer Italian states (Venice, Genoa, Naples, Milan, Savoy).
Maybe someone in western Germany, if they can pull together a state with the money and manpower.
Japan.
Oman could actually hold on to its territory in East Africa.
Any of the larger or richer Italian states (Venice, Genoa, Naples, Milan, Savoy).
Maybe someone in western Germany, if they can pull together a state with the money and manpower.
Japan.
Oman could actually hold on to its territory in East Africa.
Uh it is a timeline. It posits a divergence and then what happens. As to what my point is, well.... the way you wrote it looked like it was all tied together so as you said, most of what you wrote after the PoD is unlikely to happen.