Communist Italy

What if Italy goes Communist in the 20's, beating the Fascists and overthrowing the King?

Who would lead a Communist Italy? Who were the prominent Italian Communists at that time? What brand of Communism could come out of Italy? How would Italy do economicaly and militarily?

What relationship would it have with the Soviet Union? How would neighboring countries and the West react to a Communist Italy?

Is there a chance for Communist Italy to become more than the second rate power, Fascist Italy was in OTL? And what if it did?

And what would World War II look like ITTL?
 
For one, the Spanish Civil War would be very different.
If instead of massive italian support for Franco we see massive italian support for the Republic, the outcome would be different. Of course, it could also be that UK and France get that afraid of the commies that they support actively Franco's forces. In this scenario it's much more probable a war between nazis and communists with the democracies helping the nazis or at least leting them do.
 
Another interesting question would be what would happen to the Papacy and the Vatican in Rome? My guesss is the Pope would flee to France or somewhere. I couldn't imagine the Communists signing a treaty with the Vatican, making it an independent state like what Mussolini did.

The Catholic Church in Italy would probably be slowly dismantled like the Orthodox Church in Russia.
 
C'mon, are you underestimating the "prisoners of the Vatican"?

The last time the Papacy ever left Rome was for Avignon, and we all know how THAT went along. Pretty much, except for that period, the Catholic Church is dominant in Rome. Also don't forget that even with the secularists, there will still be people going to Mass (especially in the South), if not every day then on Christmas, Easter, Ash Wednesday, and feast days. Eventually, the Commies will HAVE to do something like the Lateran Treaty, though it would be an exception, not the rule. Even then, the Commies would prop up the Catholic Church in Italy (like the Russian Orthodox Church) just to gain support for the Communist régime.

Who knows, maybe we could have an Italian version of the Cristero War coming.
 
The Bolsheviks separated from the Socialist party in 1921. I doubt that they could put together a successful revolution so early in their life.

It would be more credible to postulate an armed leftist opposition to the March to Rome, in October 1922; this opposition would have to be led by the socialist party and the trade unions, obviously. Anarchists and bolsheviks would be just "flankers".

Mind, the left was strong in the north-west (Piedmont, Liguria, Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, northern Tuscany), not so much in the other regions (and in particular in the south of the country); the army was quite faithful to the monarchy. Overall, I don't give a successul leftist insurrection more than one chance out of 4 or 5
 
I think a good question is what kind of communism wins. Is it the Russian Stalinist? Anarcho-syndicalism? Or Socailism with an italian flavor to it? For you have the industrial north, and agarian south, if communism takes over you would have to deal with the looser farm life and the regimented industrial life.

1.) Expect alot of sicilians to be rounded up. The mafia will be tolerated for a very short time.

2.) France, Yugoslovia, Austria, and Switzerland will have nothing to do with the nation. Pretty much forcing them into the arms of the Soviets.

3.) I'd expect a fight at some point between the colonial powers, and Italy in the 20's, 30's. For fighting Russia is one thing, but Italy would be considered a push over. The moment someone says they are reclaiming the vatican you can expect much of the world joining in the fight.
 
What if Italy goes Communist in the 20's, beating the Fascists and overthrowing the King?

Who would lead a Communist Italy? Who were the prominent Italian Communists at that time? What brand of Communism could come out of Italy? How would Italy do economicaly and militarily?

What relationship would it have with the Soviet Union? How would neighboring countries and the West react to a Communist Italy?

Is there a chance for Communist Italy to become more than the second rate power, Fascist Italy was in OTL? And what if it did?

And what would World War II look like ITTL?

I'd like to bump this thread. I need more answers to the above questions.

And a couple of more questions; Would Nazism still come to power in Germany without an Italian Fascist basis? And what if Stalin signs some treaty with the Italian Communists, allowing for a Soviet naval presence in the Mediterranean?
 
What if Italy goes Communist in the 20's, beating the Fascists and overthrowing the King?

mmmh, interesting idea, but unlikely.

Italy was thorn by strikes and other social issues (economical crisis, veterans still unemployed, almost feudal agriculture and social structure in the south), still worker class just did not had the power or the instruments (cultural and material) to start a revolution.

the same fascist movement and the march on Rome was seen as (and it was) just a minor public order nuisance, nothing that one or two regiments of Carabinieri Reali could not take care of in an afternoon. it was a surprise for a lot of people that the king actually received and spoke with Mussolini instead of having him and his bunch of friends arrested.

that is to say that the government would still have a lot of power.

keep also in mind the difference between the relatively progredite, industrial north and the arretrate, agricultural south: it would have been hard to find some common ground between the proletarian of this zones.

there were intellectual and agitators but there were also a lot of analfabetism, so circulation of new ideas was slow. peasants in the south colud easily be intimdated by big land-owners.

Who would lead a Communist Italy? Who were the prominent Italian Communists at that time? What brand of Communism could come out of Italy? How would Italy do economicaly and militarily?

for what concern the main intellectuals, I'll write down some name, but then you should make some research for your own, because as much as this thread could be interesting (I'm italian, by the way) unfortunately I'm not such a great scholar.

you could concentrate on Antonio Gramsci, Palmiro Togliatti(two "orthodoxes") and Amadeo Bordiga (somewhat more interesting ideologically, even if always minoritarian), Umberto Terracini. anyway the socialists mantained a good position, so you may search also on Nenni and Turati.

Who would lead? given that a communist coup in Italy at the time would have impossible (in my opinion) without external aid, and given that the only source for such help would have come from the USSR, and given that the most USSR-aligned were Togliatti and Gramsci (Bordiga was dismissed ad "sectarian" and "trotzkist"), I'd say Togliatti.

Gramsci was surely a significative personality, but he was more an intellectual devoted to the education of the masses than to power games, and was also of weak health. His ideal place would have been minister of culture and propaganda or something like that. interestingly, some intellectual of the contemporary right wing in Italy have a good opinion of him.

about the brand of the italian communism. well, post-war italian communist party was the largest in europe because it was the less communist. also, it contributed to the liberation from nazifascism with other political forces and to the founding of the modern italian state and its Constitution. it has to be said that it was Togliatti (then head of the party) that pushed for a legalitarian presence of the communist party inside the institutions and abandoned any velleitarian ideas of armed insurgence (if not to counter an always possible rightwing-neofascist coup).

but this was post-WW2.

to return to the '20's, I'd say that the revolutionaries should take care of the bipolar structure of Italy: industrialized north, agricultural south.

to begin with the south, it's probable that the communists would have tried to involve the population in some sort of guerrilla, as it happened with the "briganti" (bush bandits) when the Savoy kingdom (north) invaded the Borbone's Two Sicily kingdom (south). The briganti were sometimes organized and leaded by borboneses nostalgic army officers.

this time the leadership would have cared also for agricultural organization, to provide food for the rebels. the south is poor, but if adequately used, the land could sustain decently a lot of people.

it's likely that if the peasants were organized in small communes and were granted decent life condition they would have provided a good agricultural workforce and production. after all, ok, we take away a lot from you, but is always less that your precedent masters took, and this time we'll use it to feed yous, ours brothers fighting for peace, welfare and freedom, or something like that. we teach to read and write to your children, we give adequate food to them etc., so for the first moment, at last, the revolution could take in the south.

the land owners could make up some armed men to counter the rebellion, but with a good organization this could be managed by the insurgents.

it would be a good politic not to clash with the church. with some ideological pragmatism and elasticity this would not be a problem.

all this consideration lead to a sort of paternalistical benevolent, I'd say bucholical, regime, in which the revolution could consolidate and the masses been educated to further revolutionary development.

in the north there would be more problem. there the situation is more close to the marxist theories, there is a capitalist industrial structure ripe for revolution, but there is still a lot of people who have a lot more to loose than their chains from a communist revolution, so the resistance would be strong.

the worker class still has no culture enough to run the industrial plants for their own.

memories are still fresh of the foreigner domination, ended only with the second world war, so any interference from the outside would not be tolerated easily.

What relationship would it have with the Soviet Union? How would neighboring countries and the West react to a Communist Italy?

well. let's say italian communists could use weapons from USSR. surely there would be some ideological clash about the "italianization" of communism I have hypotized before, but if this is taken with pragmatism and if Togliatti is good enough to coinvince his idol Stalin that is just a matter of time before getting more orthodox (and of course if the same Togliatti first agree on this) then they could go along well. Southern Italy could become a second and more pleasant Crimea in which to build dacias and sip wine, a soviet Cote Azure.

the neghboring countries (france, austria, yugoslavia) would be enough in their own post-war and economical trouble to care for what happen in Italy, and they border on the north, where the "revolution" would be harder to realize. switzerland just would not care. germany is in even bigger troubles.

maybe UK would be concerned about soviet fleeing in the mediterranean, but UK is far away.

on the other hand, after a while bourgeois capitalist nations could be strong enough to be concerned about it. remember that Italy even if formally united under a communist regime would be still a split country: real communism north, agricultural communism in the south, with a lot of discontent in both places. it could be easy for an alliance of foreign nation to take control of Italy (ad it happened for centuries) or at least try.

given that one cannot see an italian Generalissimo Franco, even if italian collaborate to the "liberation" from the communist, it's likely that the result would be regional states ruled by puppets of foreign nation. maybe they will also tolerate a minoritarian communist regional state somewhere.

Is there a chance for Communist Italy to become more than the second rate power, Fascist Italy was in OTL? And what if it did?

no chance. if it's lucky enough WW2 does not take place, or at last stay neutral, or if the nazi still develop in germany, Italy will start the war this time from the "right" side since the beginning, and eventually is "liberated" from the USSR as well.

Italy would not develop a decent industry under the "guidance" of the soviet, and it would be lucky enough if they don't put lisenkian hands in southern agriculture.
 
1.) Expect alot of sicilians to be rounded up. The mafia will be tolerated for a very short time.

I'm afraid the opposite will happen.

when educating the masses, mafia will be pointed to them as a reactionary force, vestigial of the past etc..

then the smart mafiosi will do what they always have done, that is to blend in the current society and "legally" gain the top position from which they can control the situation, by being elected if there are elections, by playing the most orthodixical marxists if there is marxisms, and showing that they can control people whatever regime there is. I mean, the smart ones. the other ones will still hide in the country with old fashioned rifles on the shoulder and strange hats.

so the smart mafiosi will just play what there is to be played to become people commissars or whatever it is and go along well with the communists.

there is a very famous phrase in an italian novel about a noble family of Sicily at the time of the unification made by Piedmont-Savoy. the Borbone nostalgic father is scandalized that his young son want to enroll with the army he see as invaders. but the son is a lot more lucid than his father: "Bisogna che tutto cambi perché tutto resti com'è!" (everything has to change for everything to stay the same!).

meaning: these are the new ruler, if we want to remain with the ruler class, if we want to avoid the "revolution" these people from the north could bring to our lifestyle then we have to join them and try to control the "revolution" from the inside.

so it's likely that mafia will just adapt to the circumstances and that later prove itself useful in governing the southern regions.
 
And a couple of more questions; Would Nazism still come to power in Germany without an Italian Fascist basis?

sure. nazism was little influenced from the fascism. it is said that hitler developed a passion for military uniforms after having seen mussolini's ones but this is a minor question.

also, it was not clear until late that fascist italy was going to ally with nazi germany. for many italian german speaking people remained a barbarian historical enemy. this is to say that nazi germany did not need any italian help at all, they were already powerful when Italy was still indecided to which side to ally to.

if I'm not wrong when Germany tried to invade/annex Austria for the first time in 1934 they had to renounce also fot the military opposition of fascist Italy. probably a communist Italy could not take care of this issue.

anyway, a soviet controlled Italy should be relatively friendly to the nazi Germany given the molotov-ribbentrop pact.


And what if Stalin signs some treaty with the Italian Communists, allowing for a Soviet naval presence in the Mediterranean?

allow? they would have beg for it. I doubt that a communist Italy could even had scratched its nose without soviet permission.
 
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Wow, that is a heck of alot'a detailed answers you've posted there, Ibo. Thanks! I'm gonna comment on that after I think of stuff to say about it.
 
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