Communist Italy and Vatican

Would the pope and church relocate? Where would they move? What if Italy took over the place forcibly immediately after communist take over of the country? What would happen to the pope and the church? Public and world reaction? Additionally, what if communist Italy got hold of all of the Vatican archives? I could see Italy finding a lot of things in those archives that could greatly hurt the church's imagine and maybe even discredit it to many people.
 
I think you are assuming that Italian communism would be anti-church ... but that's not sure. I think Communist Italy requires at least cooperative Vatican, because it wouldn't be annexed with the rest of Italy, since it is a separate state. So if, and that's a big if, there is an anti-church italy invading Vatican, the Curia would probably burn all of the archives that are not important documents, and then they would be either executed (causing huge unrest in Italy) or exiled. If they are exiled, France might accept to lend them the Avignon Papal Palace until further notice, and if the Church is beheaded, there would be a council with all the cardinals, electing someone new
 
I think you are assuming that Italian communism would be anti-church ... but that's not sure. I think Communist Italy requires at least cooperative Vatican, because it wouldn't be annexed with the rest of Italy, since it is a separate state. So if, and that's a big if, there is an anti-church italy invading Vatican, the Curia would probably burn all of the archives that are not important documents, and then they would be either executed (causing huge unrest in Italy) or exiled. If they are exiled, France might accept to lend them the Avignon Papal Palace until further notice, and if the Church is beheaded, there would be a council with all the cardinals, electing someone new
True, but I could see a communist Italy willing to talk and work with the church but most of the church and pope refuses to work with the communist government in anyway. The pope and church even had a great amount of conflict with the kingdom of Italy at first for a long period of time. Imagine their reaction to a communist Italy. I could see Italy being open to talking at first but if the church starts to convince or fund Italians into a counter revolution the communist will become very anti church and maybe state atheist
 
Would the pope and church relocate? Where would they move? What if Italy took over the place forcibly immediately after communist take over of the country? What would happen to the pope and the church? Public and world reaction? Additionally, what if communist Italy got hold of all of the Vatican archives? I could see Italy finding a lot of things in those archives that could greatly hurt the church's imagine and maybe even discredit it to many people.

I am guessing that the Communists would go "Sandanista" on the Vatican. In short, their operating belief would be: We don't really like you, but we are not going to occupy you- but we will suppress you:

- Conservative Bishops, Cardinals etc cannot enter Italy. This either makes them prisoners in the Vatican, or they expel themselves by leaving. Likewise, they cant visit the Vatican to offer support, receive instructions etc.

- Vatican offices in Italy proper are all gently seized and turned over to a select group of pro communist laity or renegade clergy with socialist sympathies. This serves as the nucleus for an alternative church.

- Socialist police "protect" the Vatican from "disturbances" by means of check points in Italy proper. Conservative laity seeking to enter the Vatican for either pilgrimage, instruction, conferences etc. are harassed. Even for ordinary tourists, check points are known to close suddenly and unexpectedly. Entry permits issued by liberal, communist sanctioned groups, are never impeded. This increases the legitimacy of the alternative church.

- The Vatican experiences a lot of electrical, water and sewage outages (purely for technical difficulties of course. In addition, the Socialist government has big plans for new worker housing projects, colleges, industrial developments etc. Some times services need to be "prioritized"). A lot of the interruptions occur during midwinter and midsummer (down right frigid in the offices / museums or plain smelly if sewage backs up). Vatican officials are required to work through the alternative church to get the services back.

- The phones, of course, are all tapped.

- If push comes to shove, the Pope wont be allowed to enter Italy either. Thus, he becomes a prisoner as well.

How do the Communists come to power in the first place? I don't see how it happens after the Americans invade.
A socialist government gets voted in during the 1970s. They then move steadily further left.
 
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I think you are assuming that Italian communism would be anti-church ... but that's not sure. I think Communist Italy requires at least cooperative Vatican, because it wouldn't be annexed with the rest of Italy, since it is a separate state. So if, and that's a big if, there is an anti-church italy invading Vatican, the Curia would probably burn all of the archives that are not important documents, and then they would be either executed (causing huge unrest in Italy) or exiled. If they are exiled, France might accept to lend them the Avignon Papal Palace until further notice, and if the Church is beheaded, there would be a council with all the cardinals, electing someone new

Wouldn't Spain be more plausible new location of Papacy? It is quiet religious nation when France is ratherly pretty secular.
 
Wouldn't Spain be more plausible new location of Papacy? It is quiet religious nation when France is ratherly pretty secular.

Just thought of Avignon since the Papacy already had a buidling, but sure, any state with Catholic majority would do the job.

True, but I could see a communist Italy willing to talk and work with the church but most of the church and pope refuses to work with the communist government in anyway. The pope and church even had a great amount of conflict with the kingdom of Italy at first for a long period of time. Imagine their reaction to a communist Italy. I could see Italy being open to talking at first but if the church starts to convince or fund Italians into a counter revolution the communist will become very anti church and maybe state atheist

The Church might also cooperate. That would be interesting to see, and a Communist minded Catholic church would probably result in schisms with Polish catholic church, which is the cliché of the rich powerful and influent church. They wouldn't be super amused by the Pope telling them about charity and clerical poverty.
 
A socialist government gets voted in during the 1970s. They then move steadily further left.

A PSI coalition is unlikely to be moved further left. The PCI proved immobile. BR Maoists and the operaismo are extra parliamentary.

Then there’s gladio
 
Would the pope and church relocate? Where would they move? What if Italy took over the place forcibly immediately after communist take over of the country? What would happen to the pope and the church? Public and world reaction? Additionally, what if communist Italy got hold of all of the Vatican archives? I could see Italy finding a lot of things in those archives that could greatly hurt the church's imagine and maybe even discredit it to many people.
if these are Italian Euro-communists nothing at all would happen unless the CIA got paranoid and tried to remove them by force, directly or indirectly using the Free-masonry lodges, except one can predict an upturn in Liberation theology both in the Church and the Christian Democrats, one should remember the most likely way for the PCI to win was actually at the ballot box. TBH Catholicism is easier with collectivist approaches than Protestant churches.
 
Italian Communist Party had a Cuban(South American Communism) approach to Catholic Religion: maybe ideologically against it and with the Church monitored, but no open opposition and valorization of common points (Christian-Socialism, Equality Message, Pacifism). Additionally, due of lack of ethic positions in Communism, many Communist countries took a social conservative line on ethic issues. For example, although women's liberation was a main point, abortion was not so supported (in Soviet Union it was banned between 1936 and 1955 and after was nevertheless discouraged by authorities. In Cuba was decriminalized in 1965 and legalized only in 1979). In 1981, during a referendum to abolish the Italian Abortion Law, Communist and Socialist Parties declined to oppose it and invited to abstention, hoping to make invalid it with a vote under the threshold (as happened). So, if Communists take power with Berlinguer Secretary, no actions will be take against the Catholic Church or religion in general and in favor of Euthanasia or a more available abortion. There would be a democratic government based on Eurocommunism principles and, if CIA don't decide to start a coup (cough cough Pinochet cough), all will be okay.
Maybe if in 1945 Italy is liberated by Soviets pro-Soviet Togliatti is put in charge and, in favor or not (he was an hardliner but a smart one and understood the necessity to have good relations with the Catholic majority of the country), he had to enact Stalinist policies and bring Italy in Warsaw Pact. But, if you think that the Pope will remain silent, you're wrong: the Church has always a plan. In specific Pious XII wrote a secret message during Nazi occupation to explain what do in case of invasion of Vatican or persecution of Catholics in Italy: Catholic Action had to organize an underground for refugees and resistance fighters, as it made during the War, while archives had to be burned. If the Pope himself was captured, a emergency Conclave was to be called immediately in Lisboa, Portugal, to elect a new one. Pious XII signed also his white resignation that would become effective in case of capture (he said "They will want the Pope but will have only the Cardinal Pacelli!"). So, in case of repression, the Church will be damaged of course but nevertheless will continue to be active, in almost all the circumstances (to make understand, there was also a plan to evacuate the Cardinals to Malta if an anti-clerical regime had take power after the break of Porta Pia). Probably Italy became a sort of Poland ante litteram, with a strong civil resistance led by the Church.
 
Here you need to decide how Italy became communist. If, as a result, Biennio Rosso, then on the one hand there is a possibility of hyper-secularization with tactical cooperation with leftist and reformist Catholics. If as a result of the rise of the Communist Party against the background of the Soviet occupation, here we see a different situation. Late Stalinism will still emphasize the separation of church and state. However, there is another point - the Stalinists do not want a change in the church structure. All they need is a formally independent church under state control — an ideal agent network.
 
Maybe..... Rome, August 197-

The Background:

The Socialist Italian government slides into a long hot summer. Rome feels, well, ‘eternally hot’ and in the Vatican, sewage smells after several days of sporadic services only add to the sullen attitudes of its inhabitants and supporters.

The control checkpoints / gates leading to Saint Peters square are manned by a “Motley Crue” of a handful of bored Gendarmes supplemented by a larger number of PYSO, Peoples Youth Service Organization volunteers. The PYSO is an umbrella organization sponsored by the Socialist government whose sponsored activities include everything from youth sports, community action to police assistance.

All PYSO activities are, of course, served salted with left wing ideology and are performed by socialist true believers supplemented by a larger number of fair weather socialist sympathizers mainly interested in earning educational stipends.

Contrary to “Red Guards” claims on the right, most PYSO members serving as police auxiliaries are not armed and most are not even fervent socialists- let alone Maoists. Red Guards or not, the gates are used to restrict access to the Vatican on various pretenses. There are, however, two lines that cannot be crossed. The first is a clearly painted line separating the Vatican from Italy. The other line is a vague policy line describing how much harassment can be meted out at the gates.

A Line (or lines) get crossed

An incensed Mark D ’Mateo, brother of Father Daniel D’ Mateo is using a creole of badly broken Italian, Brooklynese and English to engage in a “dialogue” with PYSO members over Father Daniel’s repeated pretense based delays in crossing to the Vatican ND now the insistence on searching his person for “state property”. The fact that Father Daniel is making a quiet statement of his own via full Roman collar, large crucifix, cassock etc. and thus openly separating himself from progressive clergy who wear street clothes only draws even more negative PYSO attention.

Push comes to shove, comes to shots….

There is no doubt that Mark D-Amato threw the first punch- decking an unarmed PYSO member, before defiantly striding over the white line into the Vatican. Likewise, there can be little doubt that PYSO members crossed the border line with night sticks to arrest the resisting Mark D ‘Mateo. What is in doubt is whether a PYSO leader shooting Mark D’Mateo’s large NYC frame twice with an underpowered pistol was justified. The shooter, however, can’t be questioned as he was struck fatally by a rifle shot fired by a Swiss Guard.

Likewise, it cannot be doubted that the Swiss Guard, like Swiss from the days of William Tell, hit what they aim at with steady precision. What can be doubted is whether the Guard truly needed to fire at all those hit: an unarmed PYSO member trying to drag the wounded Mark “D-Mateo back to Italy, a PYSO member pointing, but not firing another under powered pistol, a confused Gendarme actively firing into the Vatican. All told, rifle fire from the guards left two dead and two wounded and Mark D ‘Mateo has shelter at the Vatican.


Rome boils over:

Outraged and frustrated, PYSO members and supporters converge on Saint Peter’s Square. Religious goods shops and souvenir shops outside the square are looted resulting in the death of one store owner attempting to save his property. Businesses displaying religious symbols are vandalized. Clergy in the vicinity of the Vatican are confronted and some are lightly beaten. As the crowd nears the square and some appear to cross into the Vatican, a short and unequal pot shots verse guard shots leaves another PYSIO member dead.

The morning sees a calm at the Vatican as large numbers of Gendarmes stare into the Vatican at largely concealed Swiss guards and loyal Italian security officers. Rumors circulate that Italian right wingers have entered the Vatican and are being armed for its defense.

The next night, it is the right that rages. Crowds consisting of ante socialists, those simply frustrated by failing socialist policies and the bored battle police as provocateurs call for a mass march to defend the Vatican. Now it is PYSO offices and leftist owned property that is attacked. An ugly scene develops as unarmed youth caught in PYSO uniforms are beaten and marched off down a street by demonstrators.

Is Italy on the brink?

- The government asks for Mark D-Mateo to be returned to Italy for criminal charges? Will the Vatican comply? Will Italy attempt to force the extradition?

- If push comes to shooting again, how willing is the Italian military to support Socialist action against the Vatican?

- Will riots and counter riots spread if the stand off continues?
 
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If you refer to OTL Socialist Party, I cannot see any way to this. No one, neither the most radical left wing of the party, was in favor to storm the Vatican. And the Communist Party was careful to avoid any serious problem outside factories and places. Red Brigades terrorized Italy for years, killing judges and high ranked politicians or generals, but no a single priest, bishop or Cardinal was killed or kidnapped. There was surely a cultural battle between the Church and the Left, as Catholics were the major intellectual counterpart to Communist thought, but was mostly a battle of ideas and words (maybe simplified by Don Camillo's films). In Italy the Church is not so beloved as maybe can appear from outside but there is a sort of public respect for it: attacking churches and clergy members is not for good people. People reacted to it. Only Mafia dared so much to kill priests (for example Giuseppe Puglisi) and bombing churches (among others, the Saint John in Lateran Church bombing) and the public opinion turned against it almost immediately.
Also, no way that young members of a (left or right) party can assist policemen and soldiers in their duties in a democracy. It was a typical system during the Fascist Regime (for Fascists of course) but after the war it was finished and any attempt from left parties to assume power on public order would cause a coup by CIA-coordinated militaries.
 
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