Commuism and Warsaw Pact is stronger TL

The POD of this TL is the end of WW2, the Soviets not only got the bulk of German knowhow but Germany as well.


USA Lost the Space Race when Apollo 10 exploded ending USA landing on the Moon, Russia landed on the Moon.



the Warsaw Pact became the strongest bloc in Europe Nato unlike in are world became a limp reaction like the Warsaw Pact in our world.


The Nation of Canada due to Communism Nations power and unity unlike in our world Red China and North Korea, Korea is all Red


LW
 
Some questions?

First of all what do you mean by "stronger" as in OTL the WP wasn't considered weak or ineffective for what it was organized to do.

The POD of this TL is the end of WW2, the Soviets not only got the bulk of German knowhow but Germany as well.

1) Considering the bulk of German "knowhow" was terrified of the Russians, (with reason actually) and did their level best to avoid capture by them what's the reason for their change of heart?

2) Considering the Soviets OTL ignored the Germans they DID capture in favor of their own development programs why would capturing "more" mean they would utilize them any more than OTL?

3) France and England, (specifically France though) were vehemently opposed to full Soviet control of Germany as was the US and doing so would run into violation of previous agreements. Not that Stalin wasn't capable of doing so if he wanted but it would have meant very possible armed conflict with the West and even more (and firmer) opposition to the formation of the Warsaw Pact in the first place.

USA Lost the Space Race when Apollo 10 exploded ending USA landing on the Moon, Russia landed on the Moon.

By Apollo 10 (May, 1969) the US was fully committed to winning the race to the Moon and they "technically" had until January 1970 to do so and could easily have spun/PR-ed the race into 1971 to achieve the goal. Sputnik seriously panicked the US and that led directly to JFK seeking a goal that was within, (even if just barely) reach of the US but would clearly be harder for the USSR to achieve. That ended up being the Moon and once started the moment would have been very difficult to stop even if Kennedy hadn't been killed.

The Soviet Lunar program was a mess and it would take significant changes to make the competitive in the same time frame. Not that it can't be done, (because lets face it I'm planning on doing so when I get around to it) but the most likely outcome of the US "quitting" the Moon race if the Soviets not going either. (The had already stated by that point they weren't interested in "racing" the US and would or would not get to the Moon on their schedule)

the Warsaw Pact became the strongest bloc in Europe Nato unlike in are world became a limp reaction like the Warsaw Pact in our world.

Why would NATO be a "limp" reaction? The stronger the WP is the more the nations that make up NATO would ramp up as well. Note that in OTL no one considered the WP to be push-overs or weak opponents. NATO fully expected to get hammered in any conflict versus the WP and the plan was always to simply try and hold on until significant forces from North America were able to be deployed in Europe. The only thing "limp" about the WP was the commitment of the non-Russian members to the idea of full out war with the West/NATO and for similar reasons the European members of NATO were less than thrilled with the prospects of WWIII; Everyone knew that the ones getting smashed into paste would be Europe with the US and Russia being "mostly" as support/supply until/unless the strategic nukes started flying at which point the results would matter even less to the survivors.

The Nation of Canada due to Communism Nations power and unity unlike in our world Red China and North Korea, Korea is all Red

LW

Not clear what you mean here, Canada goes Communist? Pretty unlikely at best and if you mean Communist "unity" then Mao has to be eliminated as his and the Russian version/vison of Communism where incompatible. A fully Red Korea is possible but it would take something significant diverting US attention AND delaying till the US fully pulled out of Korea which is more unlikely to happen if the Soviets are getting grabby in Europe already.

Really an interesting premise though and I anticipate seeing how the issues are resolved.

Randy
 
What's meant by Communism here, the Stalinist line, a possible alternate successor to Stalin, Khrushchev's more liberal communism or Maoism?

If you want a stronger Warsaw Pact, you need the pact to remain the open body that at was, and subsequently have Khruschev remain in power. The problem is Khruschev is a vigorous fool, willing to go back several endeavors such as missiles in Cuba and the Virgin land's campaign, the former which helped bring him out of power.

Also, you need to have him handle both the Czechoslovakian and Hungarian Crises much better so that market socialism can stick around. Market Socialism could help prevent the stagnation that would plague Brezhnev,Andropov,Chernenko, and Gorbachov making the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact more viable.

Mao and company are a tricky issue, maybe you could have Khruschev take a modified peaceful coexistence, with a caveat of supporting movements that genuinely ask for Soviet aid and at least appear to be for "freedom". This could help avoid some of the ideological differences. If Communism still has an open Warsaw pact, it could lead to more negotiations a more equitable distribution of power then something being kept together by force.
 
I mean about Canada in our world Canada doesn't have much of an Armed Forces, Navy and Air Force as well, This is due to America being such a great power and the fact are inventions such as the Arrow which would have bin a good Fighter Plane was killed due to poor Canadian govermential support and USA meddling.


Now due USSR strength and the other Red Nations Canada got Stronger after WW2, This reflects in Red Dawn like settings that Canada is always left out of these Invasions.

Another area that sill exist are the White Russians there based in Alaska and the Yukon, most of them are Russian Royalists.


USSR won Space Race was the first to developed the A Bomb, however in our world Red Ivan (sorry if I offend some people with view on USSR),

In this world Korea is all Red, so is China, Vitnam, Laos, and Iraq.

Your Right about NATO they would have to ramp up to reply in the Warsaw Pact, but with Rockets on Cuba and most Latin America is Red as well.

LW
 
What your asking requires a more refined POD anything with at least at a White Russian Alaska might be pre-1900.
 
No in this timframe and POD Royalist White Russians are still fighting an underground war with Sovs,


Canada due to USSR stronger as a Nation and strong ties With England, in our world after WW2 USA became the world's policeman, but with a Stronger Commuism nations they couldn't be the police.


LW
 
Man you beat me to it. I was thinking about making a TL where the USSR improves its position due to slightly different economic policies. It was to be titled "Every Barrack is Happy".
 
Wait.

What?

So you're implying that the Warsaw Pact was made first (because the WP was a response to NATO, which technically made WP a bit more "limp" reaction)?

So Korea goes all red.... How? Direct Soviet intervention? Because by the Pusan Perimeter, the North Koreans had NO chance of winning. A weakened South Korea is possible, but a total elimination is improbable.

Vietnam go full red? So America and France just let the Soviets roll them over?

I'm having trouble following your logic. Because if in TL, Korea somehow becomes all red, that would mean the US would be even MORE afraid of communism spreading and taking countries over like a disease. Therefore, they would do EVERYTHING in their power to prevent the Vietnamese from falling. Of course, it's still possible that America loses the Vietnam War like OTL, but the Chinese and the Soviets have a whole another thing coming at them.

Red Canada is hilariously impossible. The US would squash any communist neighbors. I mean, they were paper thin close on eliminating Cuba.

And even if the US lost the Space Race, it doesn't make the US any less stronger in the political field. After all, the Soviet Space Program was one of many reasons why the Soviets went bankrupt towards the end.
 
No in this timframe and POD Royalist White Russians are still fighting an underground war with Sovs,


Canada due to USSR stronger as a Nation and strong ties With England, in our world after WW2 USA became the world's policeman, but with a Stronger Commuism nations they couldn't be the police.


LW
With this POD (the end of WW2) the Whites have been reduced to little more than a few cultural and émigré support organizations. Even the National Alliance of Russian Solidarists (which was basically the only group that kept on fighting after the war) was basically a joke, with almost all of their attempts to infiltrate the USSR ending in failure.

I'm also not clear on what you're saying. Are you saying that the US owns Alaska and is allowing the Whites to use it as a staging ground? If so Alaska doesn't make much sense as a training ground. If you're saying that the Soviets own Alaska and are fighting against the Whites there, then it's ASB. The Soviets are not going to take Alaska, and if they tried it would result in WWIII.

Canada and the UK have historically been strong US allies, and they aren't going to go red even if the Soviets are stronger.
 
I'm not saying Red Canada, Red Mexico yes but not Canada. At the end of WW2 were Canadians were promised a stronger powerful nation, but we ended up get weaker instead no Armed forces to speak of. Now Dispight the fact the the Whites lost the Civil War they are still fighting the Reds just underground.

Ok in this setting like in Freedom Fighters PS2 game USA is the weaker of the group in North America, Canada has bin shouldering the load of protecting North America.


LW
 
well I still want help on this setting, I just wanted to make USSR and the Warsaw Pact allies stronger in this setting then NATO,


LW
 
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