Commonwealth of England Survives.

What would the historical impact of a Cromwell's England manages to survive. In fact how long could it realistically survive?
 
I don't know a lot of the history of this era, so I may come across as naive or worse, but I'll take a stab at it anyway. WI Cromwell tried a radical move to extend democracy, such as extending suffrage to cover a lot more of the population, even to include tradesmen; and passed some laws that England wouldn't have until the 1830s OTL? I have always felt that Charles 1 was a total asshole, and if Cromwell had handled things right, the people may not have wanted to see the monarchy restored ever. Of course, Cromwell probably didn't have it in him to be so much in favour of so many rights for the common man, and certainly the landholding classes would have been aghast at the thought of tradesmen having the right to vote, so that might have sparked a new round of trouble.
 

Hnau

Banned
Get the Dutch in on the Crommonwellth. Just keep that dictator Orangist king alive, then the provinces could call upon Cromwell to oust him from the country. The extra income, colonies, navy could keep the regime afloat long enough for the next Cromwell to learn enough to become somewhat competent.
 
This would have serious ramifications down the line.It is prossible that we could be looking at a major Commonwealth that encompasses all of the North American continent north of Mexico, the British Isles and the Netherlands in a history such at this.
 

Hnau

Banned
A few butterflies after the creation of an Anglo-Dutch Protectorate/Commonwealth.

We need to get rid of George Monck for the Commonwealth to survive. It was he that effectively ended the Commonwealth by using his forces from Scotland to uphold a royalist Parliament. The best way to do that is a man by the name of Robert Overton, who conspired to kill him in 1654. Assume he moves faster and leads a military insurrection to take control of the Scottish military and lead them against Cromwell to throw down the Protectorate and establish a true theocratic republic. He is assassinated, but the military is divided on Overton's views, and it eventually starts a civil war in Scotland that Cromwell must put down (pretty easily, I believe, considering the internal divisions). Perhaps Richard could even participate in this.

In any case, let's give Cromwell four more years, because malaria is a fickle thing. In September of 1662 he dies, but Richard has a little more experience serving under his father and holds power for 10 months instead of 7. In July 1663 there are troubles over succession, but eventually Charles Fleetwood is made the new Lord-Protector. This probably inevitably starts new insurrections, but, hey, let's say Fleetwood is a man who knows how to deal with problems as ruthlessly as Cromwell.

From then on, the Lord-Protector always names an heir, and that heir must be supported by the army. The Commonwealth probably becomes a military-state.
 
"From then on, the Lord-Protector always names an heir, and that heir must be supported by the army. The Commonwealth probably becomes a military-state."

In other words, the Commonwealth becomes a nation in which what Voltaire said about Prussia is true and applied?
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Get the Dutch in on the Crommonwellth. Just keep that dictator Orangist king alive, then the provinces could call upon Cromwell to oust him from the country. The extra income, colonies, navy could keep the regime afloat long enough for the next Cromwell to learn enough to become somewhat competent.

Dictatorial Orangist King during Cromwells reign? :confused:
 
Dictatorial Orangist King during Cromwells reign? :confused:
I think that for the rich merchants all stadholders would be Dictatorial wannebe kings they want to get rid of. Still I don't think that the stadholders weren't that bad compared to the other kings, Dukes, counts, etc. But a surviving Willem II leading to Dutch civil war between the stadholder (who wants to become king) and the merchant-regents (who want to rule themselves) could happen. And Cromwell could in theory intervene on the site of the rich merchants.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
I think that for the rich merchants all stadholders would be Dictatorial wannebe kings they want to get rid of. Still I don't think that the stadholders weren't that bad compared to the other kings, Dukes, counts, etc. But a surviving Willem II leading to Dutch civil war between the stadholder (who wants to become king) and the merchant-regents (who want to rule themselves) could happen. And Cromwell could in theory intervene on the site of the rich merchants.

I don't see why the regents would ever ask Cromwell for help against Willem II. IIRC Willem II's (just like all the other Oranjes) powerbase were the poor, 'landlocked' provinces. Gelderland and the likes. All piss-poor, certainly compared to Holland which basically payed for the whole 80 years war by itself. The Army would disintegrate while the Amsterdam merchants would earn alot of money on the seas. I think a secession is much more likely. Holland, Zeeland and (maybe) Utrecht on their own? Johan DeWitts wet fantasy come true. I really doubt that the Amsterdam merchants (who would be calling the shots) would ever ask one of their biggest enemies (Cromwell) for help.
 
I don't see why the regents would ever ask Cromwell for help against Willem II. IIRC Willem II's (just like all the other Oranjes) powerbase were the poor, 'landlocked' provinces. Gelderland and the likes. All piss-poor, certainly compared to Holland which basically payed for the whole 80 years war by itself. The Army would disintegrate while the Amsterdam merchants would earn alot of money on the seas. I think a secession is much more likely. Holland, Zeeland and (maybe) Utrecht on their own? Johan DeWitts wet fantasy come true. I really doubt that the Amsterdam merchants (who would be calling the shots) would ever ask one of their biggest enemies (Cromwell) for help.

Probably true. I can't see them asking for the help of Cromwell unless they are losing the civil war. Maybe Cromwell just decides to help them without asking them (in other words just tries to conquer the Netherlands).

Anyway secession is the stupidest thing Holland and Zeeland could do. It would basicly mean the end of an independent Netherlands the moment some continental power rises (most likely France). But those merchants never had a bit foresight in them and only cared about making money, not the good of the nation, so it probably happens.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Probably true. I can't see them asking for the help of Cromwell unless they are losing the civil war. Maybe Cromwell just decides to help them without asking them (in other words just tries to conquer the Netherlands).

Anyway secession is the stupidest thing Holland and Zeeland could do. It would basicly mean the end of an independent Netherlands the moment some continental power rises (most likely France). But those merchants never had a bit foresight in them and only cared about making money, not the good of the nation, so it probably happens.

Well, Johan de Witt tried to sell the eastern provinces to the Emperor. The idea was to keep Holland, Zeeland and Utrecht behind the Waterlinie. The Waterlinie did stop France in the Disasteryear of 1672 when the Catholics in the Eastern provinces welcomed the French en masse. A United Republic of Holland, Zeeland and Utrecht might even delay the decay of the 1700s because we wouldn't have a Stadholder with a grudge against France (My favourit Stadholder of all times, Willem III).
 
Well, Johan de Witt tried to sell the eastern provinces to the Emperor. The idea was to keep Holland, Zeeland and Utrecht behind the Waterlinie. The Waterlinie did stop France in the Disasteryear of 1672 when the Catholics in the Eastern provinces welcomed the French en masse. A United Republic of Holland, Zeeland and Utrecht might even delay the decay of the 1700s because we wouldn't have a Stadholder with a grudge against France (My favourit Stadholder of all times, Willem III).

Without that grudge on France, France would have had its precious Rhineborder and probably the eastern Dutch provinces too. England would still have been able to beat the Dutch at sea and rule the waves, unless of course there would have been no Glorious revolution and England ended up becoming some kind of French vasal state. In both scenarios Rump Netherlands would end up French. Or else possibly German if France could have been stopped and a German state arises. Holland on itself could not become a wealthy independent state.

BTW Although the (or some) Catholics might have welcomed the French, I realy doubt that the protestant majority living in the eastern provinces were very happy about being occupied by them.
 

Hnau

Banned
Alright guys, we're trying to discuss a surviving Commonwealth of England.

I can't see them asking for the help of Cromwell unless they are losing the civil war.

Wilhelm II survives passed 1650, and due to chance he manages to capture Amsterdam, crown himself Orangist King of the Netherlands, and throw his armies at Holland. In this atmosphere Cromwell's delegation arrives at the Hague, and Holland agrees to a union between the two countries in a confederate system if Cromwell helps turn back Wilhelm II. Cromwell succeeds, all of the Netherlands becomes part of the Commonwealth, albeit with a huge amount of self-rule.

Nevertheless, Cromwell and others see the union as permission to start sending colonists to Dutch colonies and becoming involve in Dutch trade routes. From here on the Commonwealth assumes more and more control over Dutch fleets and foreign policy.
 
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