Commerce Raider designs from a 1920 German point of view?

Does it run towards or away from the enemy?

While it in theory could handle a lot of situations, plans for ships like these were all crapped in favour of real cruisers and real light carriers, both which performs better.

Also, can't mix 8'' and 11'' guns as its too hard to tell the difference from splashes from them, meaning you can't reliably aim both together (That was the point with the Dreadnaughts). Better to go with more heavier and more lighter guns.

Last, the general rule is that 8 main guns (4x2 mounts) provide the most accurate fire (while 3x3 being more efficient in layout and +1 gun), and 6 main guns is the minimum required for actually having a reasonable chance to score a hit.

the japanese used special dyes to mark the fall of their rounds when sizes were similar
 
plans for ships like these were all crapped in favour of real cruisers and real light carriers, both which performs better.
Hybrid cruiser-carriers were built in the 1960s and 1970s, and performed quite successfully at that time.
 
Hybrid cruiser-carriers were built in the 1960s and 1970s, and performed quite successfully at that time.

There's a difference between a modern missile cruiser fighting over the horizon, with a flight deck largely intended for helicopters and VTOL aircraft, and a 1920:ies cruiser with heavy guns and prop planes.

How should such a ship fight? By running into the wind like to launch planes like a carrier, or run after the enemy like a cruiser? And how can it chase down fast merchants with only guns firing aft? :S


The Germans considered such raiders at some point but these projects were scrapped in favour of more sensible ships:

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/flugdeckkreuzer/index.html

the japanese used special dyes to mark the fall of their rounds when sizes were similar

For identifying shells from different ships yes, and I guess you could paint the 8'' shells red, but it doesn't work at night or in dusk, and you still have to have an additional fire control on the ship if you actually want to aim them.

And still, what can the 8'' guns do that the 11'' cannot? Why do you need two different heavy calibres where one (more guns or heavier guns) is better in all aspects?

There was a point with the Dreadnaught approach to heavy guns...



If you want something at 17 000 tonnes, get a big Panzerschiff with diesel engines for range, armour to withstand 6 or 8'' shells from the normal ranges, 11'' guns for fighting cruisers, a big secondary battery of 5,9'' for sinking merchants and small warships (later replaced by DP guns when air power becomes apparent), torpedoes for night strikes and formations, and float planes for recon with a crane for handling them.
 
Last edited:
I just want to discuss Commerce Raider designs and philosphy, NOT weather cr warfare was doomed or even possible. So...

Give me some CR crusier designs for a German tl idea. Keep the tonnage to 10,000 and guns to 6". I'll post my design tomorrow. Have fun.

German commerce raider use fast diesel engines instead of steam engine.

Speed and long range big guns rather than strong armour is the key to the success of the commence raiders.
 
My TL outline has the Germans building many merchantmen in the interwar years (just one of the effects of the 1919 POD), and this will allow for some things I have always wondered about to be discussed.

1) What if Germany builds and SELLS vast numbers of merchant ships, all identical? If these ships are sold to many nations, then one cannot just assume that a ship of 'such and such' a type is a German 'Q' ship. This would IMHO make the disguise capabilities all the more effective, as many nations will be operating identical ships as the Germans.

2) What if Germany builds up its shipbuilding capacity, but with an almost all merchant ship program? Germany has a much higher capacity by 1935 than OTL, which is when my TL has them starting "The Great Gamble".

3) Submarines I am not sure how to approach, as I cannot see Germany either going all out in their pre-war building program (without causing a massive allied counter-building program), nor can I see Germany ignoring the submarine fleet just because they cannot hope to build them secretly.

4) Naval aviation. Nuff said.

So, what are the major warships designs for Germany to plan on building (when the time comes), for her surface fleet circa 1920? I have seen some posts that broach info that is new to me, especially about the reasons for the differing main armament layout.
 
My TL outline has the Germans building many merchantmen in the interwar years (just one of the effects of the 1919 POD), and this will allow for some things I have always wondered about to be discussed.

1) What if Germany builds and SELLS vast numbers of merchant ships, all identical? If these ships are sold to many nations, then one cannot just assume that a ship of 'such and such' a type is a German 'Q' ship. This would IMHO make the disguise capabilities all the more effective, as many nations will be operating identical ships as the Germans.

Good idea but who´s going to order and buy these merchant ships?
There´s the competition from British, American and etc. shipyards. There´s also the fact that so soon after the war shipping lines from (former) Entente countries will hesitate to buy ships in Germany. If only because of public opinion.
So that leaves mainly neutral countries as potential customers. Which means the ships either have to be better than those from competing shipyards or cheaper. Can Germany do either of those things?
Certainly the German government can´t support the export of ships with subsidies. Versailles treaty reparations you know.
And I doubt the Entente countries would accept lot´s of merchant ships as part of the reparations. Shipyards in those countries would loudly complain.

2) What if Germany builds up its shipbuilding capacity, but with an almost all merchant ship program? Germany has a much higher capacity by 1935 than OTL, which is when my TL has them starting "The Great Gamble".

See above.
I like the idea. And the German shipping lines certainly need lots of new ships for those lost during and after WW1. Some sales to neutrals are also possible. But more?
Don´t you think that German shipyards in our TL already tried that approach? Why should they be more successful here that in our TL?

3) Submarines I am not sure how to approach, as I cannot see Germany either going all out in their pre-war building program (without causing a massive allied counter-building program), nor can I see Germany ignoring the submarine fleet just because they cannot hope to build them secretly.

Probably the same approach as in our TL.
Create an engineer (design and construction) company in a friendly neutral country. The Netherlands (might be the best choice), Sweden or Finland.
If the German navy is interested in long-range merchant raider designs, then I suspect that the result in the 1930s won´t be our TLs type VII submarine but more the type IX or an evolution of the U-cruisers of WW1.
(The Dutch might be the best choice because they are also interested in long-range submarines because of the Dutch East Indies.)

4) Naval aviation. Nuff said.

Definitely.
The German navy in WW1 already had their own naval aviation. Land based planes, sea planes and construction of an hybrid sea plane tender / aircraft carrier had already started (Ausonia) late in WW1.

So, what are the major warships designs for Germany to plan on building (when the time comes), for her surface fleet circa 1920? I have seen some posts that broach info that is new to me, especially about the reasons for the differing main armament layout.

Now that is a hard question given the Versailles Treaty limits.
We already mentioned AMCs and submarines. Both a good idea.
In the early 1920s the Germans would probably think about "WW1 small (= light) cruisers". Long-range and with at least 15 cm (5.9 inch) guns. Relatively "cheap" and easy to build.
Then comes the Washington Naval Treaty, introducing the treaty (heavy) cruiser. As fast as a light cruiser but more heavily armed.
Followed by improvements in naval diesel engines in the mid 1920s.
These two facts alone probably would force a major rethink about German naval designs.
So the our TL Panzerschiffe of late 1920s / early 1930s design do make some sense. Heavier armed than cruisers and faster than battleships (more numerous than battle cruisers). With long-range diesel engines.

Your German navy in the early 1930s though faces a few problems that need to be solved:
- They probably need a few capital ships to keep the attention of the British home fleet. Otherwise the British could just use most of them to escort convoys.
- If they develop dedicated long-range naval ships as raiders they should also design the naval supply ships needed for that (for example the Dithmarchen class naval supply ships).

Saying anything else would be speculation.
I´d need to know more about the political situation in the late 1920s / early 1930s. For instance:
- Are the Versailles Treaty limitations still in force? If not, why not? And what is the new arrangement?
- For example are the British and French diverted by actions elsewhere (USSR, Japan)?
- Could the Germans gain some carrier aviation experience from some other nation?
- What kind of Germany do you envision in 1935?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
My TL outline has the Germans building many merchantmen in the interwar years (just one of the effects of the 1919 POD), and this will allow for some things I have always wondered about to be discussed.

1) What if Germany builds and SELLS vast numbers of merchant ships, all identical? If these ships are sold to many nations, then one cannot just assume that a ship of 'such and such' a type is a German 'Q' ship. This would IMHO make the disguise capabilities all the more effective, as many nations will be operating identical ships as the Germans.

I think this works great, if in the 1920's as reparations. Germany can't sends to Norway and Belgium a new class of very similar merchant ships as reparations. Once the Great Depressions starts, there will be protection of local ship yards. I would need to know more about the POD.

2) What if Germany builds up its shipbuilding capacity, but with an almost all merchant ship program? Germany has a much higher capacity by 1935 than OTL, which is when my TL has them starting "The Great Gamble".

If a continuation of a 1920s program of subsidies, sure. If it is a new idea in 1935, it causes a UK reaction.

3) Submarines I am not sure how to approach, as I cannot see Germany either going all out in their pre-war building program (without causing a massive allied counter-building program), nor can I see Germany ignoring the submarine fleet just because they cannot hope to build them secretly.

Without a ToV change, hard to do a lot better than OTL. In WW1, Germany built many different models. Standardization and building the shipyard capacity is the way to go for a TL. Lots of U-boats would panic the UK, unless this is what you want for your TL.
 
Sorry for not getting back to this sooner.:eek:

Good idea but who´s going to order and buy these merchant ships?
There´s the competition from British, American and etc. shipyards. There´s also the fact that so soon after the war shipping lines from (former) Entente countries will hesitate to buy ships in Germany. If only because of public opinion. So that leaves mainly neutral countries as potential customers. Which means the ships either have to be better than those from competing shipyards or cheaper. Can Germany do either of those things? Certainly the German government can´t support the export of ships with subsidies. Versailles treaty reparations you know. And I doubt the Entente countries would accept lot´s of merchant ships as part of the reparations. Shipyards in those countries would loudly complain.
While I can see some of that kind of thing going on, I would also expect to see a public outcry for the most rapid restoration of the pre-war economy and standard of living. This can best be achieved by utilizing all availible shipyards in every country that can build merchantmen. Hence, I could see the shipbuilding industry lobbying for home built ships only, I would expect the governments to listen even more closely to the rest of the populations demands for improved conditions --- right now.


I like the idea. And the German shipping lines certainly need lots of new ships for those lost during and after WW1. Some sales to neutrals are also possible. But more? Don´t you think that German shipyards in our TL already tried that approach? Why should they be more successful here that in our TL?
I have to mai markets in mind for German merchantships in addition to European ones. Enough on that particular thought for the moment, as I don't want to get into that right now in a thread about commerce raiders.:D

Probably the same approach as in our TL.
Create an engineer (design and construction) company in a friendly neutral country. The Netherlands (might be the best choice), Sweden or Finland. If the German navy is interested in long-range merchant raider designs, then I suspect that the result in the 1930s won´t be our TLs type VII submarine but more the type IX or an evolution of the U-cruisers of WW1. (The Dutch might be the best choice because they are also interested in long-range submarines because of the Dutch East Indies.)
I think I have gone and done one better, but that is for a different thread I think.

Now that is a hard question given the Versailles Treaty limits. We already mentioned AMCs and submarines. Both a good idea. In the early 1920s the Germans would probably think about "WW1 small (= light) cruisers". Long-range and with at least 15 cm (5.9 inch) guns. Relatively "cheap" and easy to build. Then comes the Washington Naval Treaty, introducing the treaty (heavy) cruiser. As fast as a light cruiser but more heavily armed. Followed by improvements in naval diesel engines in the mid 1920s. These two facts alone probably would force a major rethink about German naval designs. So the our TL Panzerschiffe of late 1920s / early 1930s design do make some sense. Heavier armed than cruisers and faster than battleships (more numerous than battle cruisers). With long-range diesel engines.
With my evil plan, the Germans will not be building the Panzerschiffe's of OTL at all. I have something else in mind.

Your German navy in the early 1930s though faces a few problems that need to be solved:
- They probably need a few capital ships to keep the attention of the British home fleet. Otherwise the British could just use most of them to escort convoys.
- If they develop dedicated long-range naval ships as raiders they should also design the naval supply ships needed for that (for example the Dithmarchen class naval supply ships).
When I get my defecation coagulated, I will be posting my TL outline, and I think you will be interested in what I have planned for 1935 that I have dubbed "The Great Gamble".

Saying anything else would be speculation.
I´d need to know more about the political situation in the late 1920s / early 1930s. For instance:
- Are the Versailles Treaty limitations still in force? If not, why not? And what is the new arrangement?
- For example are the British and French diverted by actions elsewhere (USSR, Japan)?
- Could the Germans gain some carrier aviation experience from some other nation?
- What kind of Germany do you envision in 1935?
- Yes indeed, all the Versailles Treaty linitations will remain in place until January 1st, 1935. After that, see "The Great Gamble" in my TL outline.
- Not to my thinking as of this time, but you never know.
- Ah hem! Cough! German carrier avation? Cough!;)


I think this works great, if in the 1920's as reparations. Germany can't sends to Norway and Belgium a new class of very similar merchant ships as reparations. Once the Great Depressions starts, there will be protection of local ship yards. I would need to know more about the POD.
I have often wondered why the allies didn't just stipulate the reparations as having to include (or be made up entirely of) merchantmen built in Germany. Merchantmen are instruments of economic gain, and as such have the greatest value (IMHO) of anything Germany can make. The U-Boat war greatly depleted the allied merchant fleets, so why wouldn't they force their defeated enemy to help replace their losses as quickly as possible?


If a continuation of a 1920s program of subsidies, sure. If it is a new idea in 1935, it causes a UK reaction.
Yes. I would want to have the Germans simply continue an ever increasing merchantship building program from right after the war till 1935.


Without a ToV change, hard to do a lot better than OTL. In WW1, Germany built many different models. Standardization and building the shipyard capacity is the way to go for a TL. Lots of U-boats would panic the UK, unless this is what you want for your TL.
"ToV"???
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I have often wondered why the allies didn't just stipulate the reparations as having to include (or be made up entirely of) merchantmen built in Germany. Merchantmen are instruments of economic gain, and as such have the greatest value (IMHO) of anything Germany can make. The U-Boat war greatly depleted the allied merchant fleets, so why wouldn't they force their defeated enemy to help replace their losses as quickly as possible?


"ToV"???

Treaty of Versailles

You would just have to research why on the ships, I am sure there was a reason.

Speculation: France and Belgium seem to want raw materials and intermediate goods. The UK probably did not want a strong ship building competitor. Similar to why the UK did not like the USA getting newly built airships.
 
Finland and Russia...

IIRC, the Finns had to crash-start a shipbuilding programme to build merchantmen for Russia as 'war reparations', which I thought blankety-blank unfair. [Children and moderators read this, sadly]

But it gives a precedent for this TL to consider. German yards building Allied ships means less steel to be used on German re-armament. I have a very nasty mind.:D
 
I have often wondered why the allies didn't just stipulate the reparations as having to include (or be made up entirely of) merchantmen built in Germany. Merchantmen are instruments of economic gain, and as such have the greatest value (IMHO) of anything Germany can make. The U-Boat war greatly depleted the allied merchant fleets, so why wouldn't they force their defeated enemy to help replace their losses as quickly as possible?

They did.
Versailles Treaty Annex III:
http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/versa/versa7.html

1.
Germany recognises the right of the Allied and Associated Powers to the replacement, ton for ton (gross tonnage) and class for class, of all merchant ships and fishing boats lost or damaged owing to the war.
Nevertheless, and in spite of the fact that the tonnage of German shipping at present in existence is much less than that lost by the Allied and Associated Powers in consequence of the German aggression, the right thus recognised will be enforced on German ships and boats under the following conditions:
The German Government, on behalf of themselves and so as to bind all other persons interested, cede to the Allied and Associated Governments the property in all the German merchant ships which are of 1,600 tons gross and upwards; in one-half, reckoned in tonnage, of the ships which are between 1,000 tons and 1,600 tons gross; in one-quarter, reckoned in tonnage, of the steam trawlers; and in one-quarter, reckoned in tonnage, of the other fishing boats.
...
5.
As an additional part of reparation, Germany agrees to cause merchant ships to be built in German yards for the account of the Allied and Associated Governments as follows:
(a) Within three months of the coming into force of the present Treaty, the Reparation Commission will notify to the German Government the amount of tonnage to be laid down in German ship- yards in each of the two years next succeeding the three months mentioned above.
(b) Within two years of the coming into force of the present Treaty, the Reparation Commission will notify to the German Government the amount of tonnage to be laid down in each of the three years following the two years mentioned above.
(c) The amount of tonnage to be laid down in each year shall not exceed 200,000 tons, gross tonnage.
(d) The specifications of the ships to be built, the conditions under which they are to be built and delivered, the price per ton at which they are to be accounted for by the Reparation Commission, and all other questions relating to the accounting ordering, building and delivery of the ships, shall be determined by the Commission.
The pre-war German merchant ship gross tonnage was roughly 4.4 million tons I believe. In the period 1915 to 1918 "some 600,000 BRT in merchant vessels" were launched. Resulting in 5 million tons minus war losses.
Source (page 42):
http://germannavalwarfare.info/01gnw/subm/jpg/subm.pdf
So the Entente already got "all the German merchant ships which are of 1,600 tons gross and upwards" and a percentage of smaller ships. All in all some 3 million tons?
Plus they got the right to reserve up to 200,000 of German shipbuilding capability per year for the next several years.
The above mentioned source: "1914 Germany had built merchant vessels amounting to approximately 380,000 BRT. Her warship tonnage in this year amounted to 192,000 BRT."
If that is a representative number for pre-war production, then the Entente basically reserved 35% of German shipbuilding capacity. At prices the Entente can unilaterally determine.

Don´t know if they used it. If not then probably because the British and Americans didn´t want competition to their own shipbuilding industry.

To illustrate that point.
A while ago I looked into Italian coal imports before WW1. Roughly 10 million tons of coal per year from the British isles. 1 million tons from Germany. After the war France sold some of the coal delivered to them from Germany as reparations to Italy. And the British coal mining companies were very unhappy and complained loudly to the British government about losing market shares.

Edit: Seems I was wrong with my 4.4 million tons.
Found another website with a discussion about that topic who cited some sources. Among them the statistical yearbook of the Weimar Republic 1921/22.
According to them the tonnage of the German merchant fleet 1914 was around 5.4 million tons. (Or maybe the yearbook also counts river boats over a certain tonnage?)
Anyway, left to Germany after the war were roughly 300,000 tons of mainly small ships..
And another source mentioned there: "Total of former German ships (as of Summer 1914) under foreign flag at 1920:
964 vessels of 4609207 BRT and 80 sailing vessels of 195772 BRT"
(BRT = gross tons).
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,11311.0.html
 
Last edited:
Top