Columbus and Canary Islands

abc123

Banned
How important was the fact that Spain/Castille had Canary islands for subsequent discovery of Americas in 1492?

Or, if Portugal had Canary islands, could Columbus, still working for Castille/Spain discover Americas?
 
I guess it would depend on how widely known were the North Atlantic Islands (Iceland, Greenland and Newfoundland). That's one of the things not well recorded; how many sailors or scholars actually knew about Vinland. I think those would be more important since Vinland could easily be interpreted as the northeastern coast of Asia.
 

Driftless

Donor
Also, who of the navigators of the Age of Exploration had heard of, let alone understood Eratosthenes calculation of the circumference of the Earth?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes.
Eratosthenes of Cyrene (/ɛrəˈtɒsθəniːz/; Greek: Ἐρατοσθένης, IPA: [eratostʰénɛːs]; c. 276 BC[1] – c. 195/194 BC[2]) was a Greek mathematician, geographer,........He invented the discipline of geography, including the terminology used today.[3]

He is best known for being the first person to calculate the circumference of the Earth, which he did by applying a measuring system using stades, or the length of stadia during that time period. His calculation was remarkably accurate.

Plato & Archimedes had taken a whack at the calculation too, but with less framework.

That calculation might have given them a better estimate of potential distance. However, those who were searching for an alternate route to Asia, might have been put right off the chase - so long as they didn't know of the Americas. Which brings the question full circle: had solid information, or even rumor of Vinland, or New World visiting Basque fishermen, etc made it back to Colombus and his counterparts?
 
I'm not totally certain if the Canaries helped the Spanish reach America, but as I understand it they pioneered a lot of the tactics they would pursue in the Caribbean there. Genocide/enslavement of natives and establishment of plantation systems mainly.
 

abc123

Banned
What I wanted to say is that Columbus had used Canary Islands as:

a) place for resupply with food and water and other provisions

b) as place UNDER SPANISH CONTROL, from where he can catch Canary current and trade winds that carried him to the Americas.

ocean_currents2.jpg


1280px-Map_prevailing_winds_on_earth.png


With Canaries under Portuguese control he would most probably be prevented from doeing that.
 
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Also, who of the navigators of the Age of Exploration had heard of, let alone understood Eratosthenes calculation of the circumference of the Earth?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes.


Plato & Archimedes had taken a whack at the calculation too, but with less framework.

That calculation might have given them a better estimate of potential distance. However, those who were searching for an alternate route to Asia, might have been put right off the chase - so long as they didn't know of the Americas. Which brings the question full circle: had solid information, or even rumor of Vinland, or New World visiting Basque fishermen, etc made it back to Colombus and his counterparts?

Everyone did know that except Colombus. That's why no one wanted to fund him. If the catholic kings decided against him most of America would be Portuguese speaking.
 
I guess it would depend on how widely known were the North Atlantic Islands (Iceland, Greenland and Newfoundland). That's one of the things not well recorded; how many sailors or scholars actually knew about Vinland. I think those would be more important since Vinland could easily be interpreted as the northeastern coast of Asia.

Well, for Newfoundland it's wasn't actually that hard as a great deal of people (admittedly from those rungs of society which usually didn't record their stuff) had known about the fisheries in the Grand Banks. All the more so if one was Basque, Norman, Breton, or Portuguese (the Irish could also be included if one was keen on using the Hy-Breasil myth as fact of their knowledge of lands not their own). Of course, we don't really know how far back that knowledge went, but it was certainly there.
 
I was asking you about Spain and Americas, not about the bloody Vikings...:D

And I pointed out that a Viking discovery could have been viewed as the northeastern coast of Asia, so in the context of Columbus is rather relevant. Given the man's rather skewed view of geography, if he heard of Vinland he likely would have drawn that conclusion and thus believed Asia was a lot closer than what people like Polo first described.
 
And I pointed out that a Viking discovery could have been viewed as the northeastern coast of Asia, so in the context of Columbus is rather relevant. Given the man's rather skewed view of geography, if he heard of Vinland he likely would have drawn that conclusion and thus believed Asia was a lot closer than what people like Polo first described.

There is some speculation that English fishing boats out of Bristol (I believe) were fishing the Grand Banks because they were coming back in the 1480s full of cod and they were not spotted in the North Sea or off Iceland (the standard cod fishing grounds of the time). Some have suggested that Columbus may have been aware of that. Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't and obviously they weren't sharing their secrets if they were fishing the Grand Banks.
 

Driftless

Donor
What good fisherman willingly divulges a fishing hotspot? Especially a fisherman who's livelihood depends on his catch.;)

I'm only half kidding.... If a small group of fishermen got to the Grand Banks, it would be their equivalent of finding a gold mine. The smart ones (one's clever enough to cross and re-cross the Atlantic), aren't going to spread the word too far. However, the word would surely spread to neighbors, to itinerant merchants, etc. For most listeners, it might come across as a fanciful "fish story"...
 
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Given that otl Columbus was running short on supplies before reaching the Caribbean, if he HADNT resupplied at the Canaries, his crew might well have mutinied and returned home without ever finding the New World, no?
 

Driftless

Donor
Given that otl Columbus was running short on supplies before reaching the Caribbean, if he HADNT resupplied at the Canaries, his crew might well have mutinied and returned home without ever finding the New World, no?

Yup, and if they had pushed a notch too far, they might not have got home.
 

abc123

Banned
Given that otl Columbus was running short on supplies before reaching the Caribbean, if he HADNT resupplied at the Canaries, his crew might well have mutinied and returned home without ever finding the New World, no?

That's the kind of answer I had in my mind. Not to mention, that with Canaries under Portuguese control and not friendly to someone who want's to break their monopoly on trade with Indies, it is doubtful would he be in position to start a journey, because of ocean currents and winds...
 
Given that otl Columbus was running short on supplies before reaching the Caribbean, if he HADNT resupplied at the Canaries, his crew might well have mutinied and returned home without ever finding the New World, no?

I think he'd been given a deadline, "Find land in x number of days or we turn the boat around, and don't try and stop us...or else!" and land turned up just before the deadline, without the canaries it's unlikely supplies would have stretched that far. Also as someone said if the canaries are in the hands of Portugal they might have decided to make life difficult for their rivals.

At this point its still another couple of years to the first Portuguese voyage to India (in '94), but with the rounding of the cape it would have been seen as only a matter of time. If Columbus turned out to be right then that potential trade route gets shot to hell, since if you can just sail across the ocean who needs such a round about route. Maybe make life a little inconvenient for the travelers? After all accidents (or the "discovery" of contraband, maybe) do happen...

As to Vinland no one really knows for certain. Greenland was of course well known (though by this point no one had heard from the colony in decades) but until the remains were found in the sixties Vinland was always treated as a myth. There may have been vague rumors about a bit of land to the West, but we just don't know if Columbus knew about it when he sailed.

About the Grand Banks, I'd say its possible fishermen made landfall on Newfoundland (if not the mainland) but as some have mentioned the Grand Banks are a fisherman's gold mine, and mentioning "We found land here," leads to;

"Oh how did you end up finding that?"

"Er, well, we were just..." and that lovely monopoly on the fishing goes out the window. It might be that Cabot's trip in 1497 was the "Official" opening up of something that had been known about for a while, once people started asking questions about all those long fishing trips...
 

abc123

Banned
Interesting theory about Cabot and fishing.
If we remember that Cabral found Brazil by accident ( goeing into India and drifted by wind to the west ) in 1500, it could easily be that main competitors in this TL ( where Portugal has Canaries ) for discovery of New World are Cabot and Cabral.
 
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didn't Columbus make a trip to Iceland in his younger days? If so, there's a pretty good chance he heard of Vinland; stories of it got around, and Columbus, by all accounts, eagerly sought any and all info on land 'out there'. Of course, Vinland would have been just one more mysterious land 'out there', and given the same weight as all the other tales...
 
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