Colonized China and the new Anglo-Sinic dynasty

(Just an idea I thought about; here's just a basic intro. feel free to add ideas and comment!)

From the 12th century all the way to the 13th century, the Mongols would remain the undisputed dominant power and rulers of their unified China--only to be replaced by yet another nomadic barbarian tribe from beyond the great wall 300 years later: the Manchu, a rugged and fearsome Siberian people, and the arch-nemesis of the Han-Chinese.

The Manchu would be the rulers of the Chinese people and China from 1644 - 1911 (fact) but in this alternative timeline, the Manchu would only rule over the Chinese for about 90 years. Because starting 1734, the West led by Great Britain begins colonizing China and creating a new world for the Chinese in which the major Western power alliances; white men, are the ruling class in China. The British royal family and men from other Western nations royalty and the royal Qing dynasty women will create a new hybrid race dynasty.
 
I don't really see why the Western Royals would marry members of the Aisin Gioro clan. With Hans or Manchus selected for the harem of the new Emperor, yes; or even the Zhu clan for legitimacy's sake amongst the Han. But not really with the Aisin Gioros, since it doesn't really reap benefits to legitimacy amongst the Han (of which will be most of the people they rule over) like marrying with the Zhu clan would.
 
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I don't really see why the Western Royals would marry with members of the Aisin Gioro clan. With Hans or Manchus, yes, but not really with the families of the previous dynasty.

To create a hybrid ruling class race. The males of the dominant ruling class impregnating the females of the dominated royal family.
 
To create a hybrid ruling class race. The males of the dominant ruling class impregnating the females of the dominated royal family.
They can do so just as easily without marrying the Aisin Gioros clan. But still, whatever direction you decide to take, good luck with the TL.
 
Hope the timeline can start soon. Can I have permission to use some of the ideas that you have ? I am quite interested in this topic.
 
I don't really see why the Western Royals would marry members of the Aisin Gioro clan. With Hans or Manchus selected for the harem of the new Emperor, yes; or even the Zhu clan for legitimacy's sake amongst the Han. But not really with the Aisin Gioros, since it doesn't really reap benefits to legitimacy amongst the Han (of which will be most of the people they rule over) like marrying with the Zhu clan would.
Speaking of which,there are still plenty of Zhus alive even in 1911,but mostly descendants of Zhu Yuanzhang with the line of Zhu Di largely eradicated.
 
To create a hybrid ruling class race. The males of the dominant ruling class impregnating the females of the dominated royal family.

Legitimacy didn't derive much from such things, not in Chinese culture.

Legitimacy derived from some combination of military strength, being ethnically Han, promoting the interests of free farmers via Confucian governing, running the bureaucracy meritocratically, having prestige relative to foreign barbarians, and having a dynastic link to past rulers. It wasn't necessarily in that order, but dynastic links definitely belong near the bottom of the list.

In this scenario, the Aisin Giorio are nearly useless as marriage prospects. They aren't Han to begin with, and by being conquered have forfeited most of their legitimacy. To frame it in the usual terms, losing the war is losing the Mandate of Heaven is losing any relevancy. Their meritocratic Confucianist system abides, but it doesn't need them to survive; they needed it.

Now Russians marrying into the Qing aristocracy to help hold annexed Manchuria and Mongolia, maybe there's something to work with. But a conqueror of China canny and focused enough to build a sustainable empire, would be too smart to make that mistake.
 
Okay, I didn't see this thread until now, but I still don't believe this premise would work, and I don't care if I'm called a SJW (been there done that). The idea that just because a marriage occurs with an Asian person means that all of China will somehow roll onto their backs to become submissive, subservient slaves of a foreign royal family is completely wrong and actually perpetuates a stereotype.

1. As @Admiral Matt just said, Aisin Goro isn't even Han. If a Manchu dynasty wasn't Han enough for the Han, why do you think a half-white, half-Manchu dynasty will somehow be more than enough?

2. Starting in 1734? At that time, China was not about to be beaten by the British or any other European power.

3. "The West" rules China? Sorry, but they can't really agree on anything regarding colonization, especially in Asia (and not just Asia). They were more likely to steal trading posts from each other (East Indies, etc) than from Asian countries. Furthermore, this assumes that the Qing have no ability to actually play some minute level of politics and play off the many European colonizer against each other.

4. White men. Wow. I have no problem with them, but saying that white men would intermarry with other races at a time like this is pretty strange if they had other options, like bringing their families over. Of course, some of them would, but it would more likely be non-consensual, since even in Hong Kong under British rule, Han women who intermarried with the British were looked down upon and in the lower parts of society. In order to "intermarry with the elites" as you propose, something's gotta happen, and it's definitely not consensual.

5. Point 4, but differently. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but China is 99.99% Asian (probably a lot more than that, like 99.9999% or something). Maybe you're not aware, but this is perpetuating the same tropes and done stereotypes that can be seen when Matt Damon is the protagonist in "The Great Wall". PS: not going to watch that movie.

6. How does this happen? Do the British capture Qing women? That's non-consensual. If the Qing hand them over as hostages (already unlikely), then they're not even a matter of significance to the Qing dynasty. Making a "hybrid dynasty" does nothing to solve the issue of making these matches happen in the first place.

7. Why would the British and other Western nations royalties mix to form a "new hybrid race dynasty"? There's no motivation to do so.

8. How will there be enough white men to be the ruling class of China? Do they even all want to live and stay in China?

9. Why do they have to be the ruling class? Perhaps you haven't noticed, but there's this nice little trend where Chinese ruling classes all end up Chinese. It's called Sinicization. All those who resist are overthrown... eventually.

10. How do they take over? Divide and conquer? Sorry, the Qing dynasty is really strong and united at this time. Just trying to take over everything? Sorry, China's a big place. Attempting an attempt similar to India? Sorry, China isn't India.

11. Sorry if I sound really aggressive and rude, but this has honestly been tried and tried again by many authors on this board, and I always get really triggered when people add it to a timeline that's extremely accurate with regards to Western history and extremely inaccurate when it comes to the East. But finally, I don't see why the conquerors have to be white males. I honestly don't. It's one of the least likely possibilities. You might as well suggest arming Koreans with guns to take over China, and that'd be more of a possibility than this, considering their proximity, population, and power; plus, it'd be really interesting to see a hybrid Korean-Chinese culture. (P.S. Chinese isn't a race, and neither is Han. It's a culture. Asian is a race, however.) Or a Japanese-Chinese culture. Or a Mongolian-Chinese culture. Or a Vietnamese one. Or a Thai one. And in the end, those are all just as likely as this one.

I'm partly really annoyed because this is an AH with a biracial society consisting of a race that is heavily fetishized and exploited, which literally increases the exploitation and turns the fetishizarion into a fad among white men who will somehow migrate over to China just to have kids with some random Manchu women. I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me.

P.S. Sorry for the long rant, but these are honestly major social issues that exist worldwide today, and I'm sorry if anything I said offended anyone. I generally avoid some threads that really frustrate me. Oops.
 
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@ZhugeLiang that's a nice explanation!

Now bring the TL of Gia Long unifying Vietnam and rolling up North, taking Canton and Nanjing . Gia Long Emperor of the World :D

Seriously would love to see that though. Had the rot set in around 1790-1810?
 
Now Russians marrying into the Qing aristocracy to help hold annexed Manchuria and Mongolia, maybe there's something to work with.

Well, that or a line of Ungern-Sternbergs as regents of Mongolia. :p

But yeah, this isn't Sarawak, where some British adventurer became the ultimate white adventurer's wet dream and became ruler. China is nigh-impossible to colonize, and there's no incentive for European nobles to intermarry with non-Europeans, even European commoners. For this to happen would require a long trail of dead butterflies, and any Anglo-Sinic ruler who makes it by then would have to identify fully with his Han subjects than the Europeans, who'd treat him like a mongrel anyway.

In short, may not be ASB, but it's still just one magic spell or mind ray short of one.

@ZhugeLiang that's a nice explanation!

Now bring the TL of Gia Long unifying Vietnam and rolling up North, taking Canton and Nanjing . Gia Long Emperor of the World :D

Seriously would love to see that though. Had the rot set in around 1790-1810?

Nan Yue will reclaim its lost soil! :3
 
Nan Yue will reclaim its lost soil! :3
Make Dai Viet great again!

I do find the idea of Vietnam conquering South China fascinating, and somwhat plausible even if it would probably be temporary.

Say the N'Guyen win a decisive victory at a time of Chinese instability. If the Trinh get destroyed, the country could get reunited quickly since it was just a dynastic dispute and not a religious or ethnic civil war.
The use of advanced artillery and well trained troups would do wonders, especially given the cultural proximity
 
Okay, I didn't see this thread until now, but I still don't believe this premise would work, and I don't care if I'm called a SJW (been there done that). The idea that just because a marriage occurs with an Asian person means that all of China will somehow roll onto their backs to become submissive, subservient slaves of a foreign royal family is completely wrong and actually perpetuates a stereotype.

1. As @Admiral Matt just said, Aisin Goro isn't even Han. If a Manchu dynasty wasn't Han enough for the Han, why do you think a half-white, half-Manchu dynasty will somehow be more than enough?

2. Starting in 1734? At that time, China was not about to be beaten by the British or any other European power.

3. "The West" rules China? Sorry, but they can't really agree on anything regarding colonization, especially in Asia (and not just Asia). They were more likely to steal trading posts from each other (East Indies, etc) than from Asian countries. Furthermore, this assumes that the Qing have no ability to actually play some minute level of politics and play off the many European colonizer against each other.

4. White men. Wow. I have no problem with them, but saying that white men would intermarry with other races at a time like this is pretty strange if they had other options, like bringing their families over. Of course, some of them would, but it would more likely be non-consensual, since even in Hong Kong under British rule, Han women who intermarried with the British were looked down upon and in the lower parts of society. In order to "intermarry with the elites" as you propose, something's gotta happen, and it's definitely not consensual.

5. Point 4, but differently. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but China is 99.99% Asian (probably a lot more than that, like 99.9999% or something). Maybe you're not aware, but this is perpetuating the same tropes and done stereotypes that can be seen when Matt Damon is the protagonist in "The Great Wall". PS: not going to watch that movie.

6. How does this happen? Do the British capture Qing women? That's non-consensual. If the Qing hand them over as hostages (already unlikely), then they're not even a matter of significance to the Qing dynasty. Making a "hybrid dynasty" does nothing to solve the issue of making these matches happen in the first place.

7. Why would the British and other Western nations royalties mix to form a "new hybrid race dynasty"? There's no motivation to do so.

8. How will there be enough white men to be the ruling class of China? Do they even all want to live and stay in China?

9. Why do they have to be the ruling class? Perhaps you haven't noticed, but there's this nice little trend where Chinese ruling classes all end up Chinese. It's called Sinicization. All those who resist are overthrown... eventually.

10. How do they take over? Divide and conquer? Sorry, the Qing dynasty is really strong and united at this time. Just trying to take over everything? Sorry, China's a big place. Attempting an attempt similar to India? Sorry, China isn't India.

11. Sorry if I sound really aggressive and rude, but this has honestly been tried and tried again by many authors on this board, and I always get really triggered when people add it to a timeline that's extremely accurate with regards to Western history and extremely inaccurate when it comes to the East. But finally, I don't see why the conquerors have to be white males. I honestly don't. It's one of the least likely possibilities. You might as well suggest arming Koreans with guns to take over China, and that'd be more of a possibility than this, considering their proximity, population, and power; plus, it'd be really interesting to see a hybrid Korean-Chinese culture. (P.S. Chinese isn't a race, and neither is Han. It's a culture. Asian is a race, however.) Or a Japanese-Chinese culture. Or a Mongolian-Chinese culture. Or a Vietnamese one. Or a Thai one. And in the end, those are all just as likely as this one.

I'm partly really annoyed because this is an AH with a biracial society consisting of a race that is heavily fetishized and exploited, which literally increases the exploitation and turns the fetishizarion into a fad among white men who will somehow migrate over to China just to have kids with some random Manchu women. I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me.

P.S. Sorry for the long rant, but these are honestly major social issues that exist worldwide today, and I'm sorry if anything I said offended anyone. I generally avoid some threads that really frustrate me. Oops.
Well-said, really. Myself don't find this idea of Anglo-Sinic dynasty make any sense due to obvious reasons as you've stated above.
 
@ZhugeLiang that's a nice explanation!

Now bring the TL of Gia Long unifying Vietnam and rolling up North, taking Canton and Nanjing . Gia Long Emperor of the World :D

Seriously would love to see that though. Had the rot set in around 1790-1810?

A Vietnamese-Chinese dynasty is far more likely than an Anglo-Sinic dynasty, IMHO.
 
Didn't the Dutch intermarry with their Indonesian colonial subjects? Obviously it isn't the same, since Indonesia hadn't been a centralized state before colonial rule, but it doesn't seem implausible for a colonial power in China to intermarry with the locals, acting as the local bureaucratic class in charge of most colonial administration. I doubt that a colonial European power would co-opt the Mandate of Heaven or move their court to China/marry into Chinese nobility, however.
 
Okay, setting aside the massive creep factor of the line "The males of the dominant ruling class impregnating the females of the dominated royal family", the entire idea of a "biracial ruling class" makes no sense. You'd have to keep importing white women by the thousands, because otherwise this "biracial ruling class" is going to be 7/8 Chinese after three generations of intermarriage with Han or Manchu women (Unless they just inbreed? But I'm guessing that wasn't part of the OP's vision of sexual conquest).

On top of that, this "biracial" imperial elite is going to get completely Sinicized. They'll have Chinese teachers and Chinese mothers in addition to being expected to conform to Han culture to maintain legitimacy.

But all of that aside, I don't think the idea of a phenotypically white Emperor is too implausible at all. Not in the 18th century, but before that, before the Mongol conquest, most of Central Asia looked like modern whites. And there were undoubtedly white-looking people in pre-modern China too. Hell, even during the Song Dynasty there is documentation of tens of thousands of white-looking Persians in China. But nobody would think of this Emperor as white, because the concept didn't exist yet. They'd just see him as some ugly guy with weirdly light-colored hair.
 
Didn't the Dutch intermarry with their Indonesian colonial subjects? Obviously it isn't the same, since Indonesia hadn't been a centralized state before colonial rule, but it doesn't seem implausible for a colonial power in China to intermarry with the locals, acting as the local bureaucratic class in charge of most colonial administration. I doubt that a colonial European power would co-opt the Mandate of Heaven or move their court to China/marry into Chinese nobility, however.

The OP is suggesting European royalty is doing this. Dutch royalty didn't intermarry with Indonesian royalty. British royalty didn't intermarry with Indian royalty. So why would British royalty intermarry with these colonial subjects of theirs?

But all of that aside, I don't think the idea of a phenotypically white Emperor is too implausible at all. Not in the 18th century, but before that, before the Mongol conquest, most of Central Asia looked like modern whites. And there were undoubtedly white-looking people in pre-modern China too. Hell, even during the Song Dynasty there is documentation of tens of thousands of white-looking Persians in China. But nobody would think of this Emperor as white, because the concept didn't exist yet. They'd just see him as some ugly guy with weirdly light-colored hair.

Wasn't it earlier then the Mongols? The Uyghurs and other Turkic groups played a large role in minimising the Caucasoid features in Central Asian populations, although to some extent they still exist. The end of the first millennium is probably the end date to get one of these guys as emperor. Since the Caucasoid features correlate largely to Indo-European speaking populations, we'd thus have an Indo-European dynasty ruling China. But as you said, they'd be Sinicised before long both in every aspect.
 
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