Colonization of China, is it possible?

yourworstnightmare

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China has been split several times. But since the fall of the Mongols and the rise of the Mings China remained unified throughout the Ming dynasty, and even if the Shun dynasty failed to consolidate their power, the Manchus were able to establish the Qing dynasty and rule China as a whole.
However with a stronger Shun we could have seen China lose the north to the Manchus and there would have been two Chinas (Shun dynasty China and Manchu China).
Another possibility for a split China is if no one is able to fill the power vacuum after the Mongols are defeated and the rebel leaders just create their own petty kingdoms with none of them able to dominate over the others.
 

scholar

Banned
Yes, if China isn't a unified state, it will be colonized easily like India...:(
India wasn't 'easy'.

India took decades upon decades, slow conquest upon slow conquest, and even then after conquering almost all of it they still had to recognize autonomous zones numbering over a hundred with some that had armies a match for those in Europe in terms of sheer numbers for the medium powers.

But it was far more likely to be taken over. It wasn't culturally, ethnically, linguistically, or religiously unified in any real way. Typically speaking large powers could form in the north or south, but very rarely would they have full rule over everyone in the subcontinent and even more rarely did one group of people recognize the other as being the same as them. There were hundreds upon hundreds of small local disputes that gave foreign powers openings into taking them over.
 
I think the 30 years war and Dark Ages deserve an honourable mention.

And the Punic wars, Black Plague, and the ever memorable Vikings. The step invasions were pretty bad too. Also, I think that just about everything going on in Europe as I'm writng this counts as a Europe screw:p Woe to the sons of Rome.
 
And the Punic wars, Black Plague, and the ever memorable Vikings. The step invasions were pretty bad too. Also, I think that just about everything going on in Europe as I'm writng this counts as a Europe screw:p Woe to the sons of Rome.

Counterbalancing all of that is every single superpower until the United States coming from Europe. Every major Empire, from Spanish, to British, and even the Communist Empire, if we're counting that, originated from Europe.

And really, the two World Wars shows what it took to knock Europe from the position of the most powerful continent in the world. Even with that, it gave birth to the country with current superpower status, the United States.

For the Black Plague, that really didn't seem to slow it down, and the Vikings were still a power in Europe. No, I don't count events that still leave a European country as top dog.

My point? Europe, as a continent, has had more influence than all the others combined on modern society. I want a TL that changes that. That means no British or Spanish Empires. Maybe no Roman Empire if possible.
 
Counterbalancing all of that is every single superpower until the United States coming from Europe. Every major Empire, from Spanish, to British, and even the Communist Empire, if we're counting that, originated from Europe.

And really, the two World Wars shows what it took to knock Europe from the position of the most powerful continent in the world. Even with that, it gave birth to the country with current superpower status, the United States.

For the Black Plague, that really didn't seem to slow it down, and the Vikings were still a power in Europe. No, I don't count events that still leave a European country as top dog.

My point? Europe, as a continent, has had more influence than all the others combined on modern society. I want a TL that changes that. That means no British or Spanish Empires. Maybe no Roman Empire if possible.
Europeans came from Africa ;).

EDIT: And Indo-Europeans came from northwestern Asia
 
Europeans came from Africa ;).

EDIT: And Indo-Europeans came from northwestern Asia

When has Africa ever held significant power over... anything?

Seriously, outside of Ancient Egypt, it always seems to the continent everyone rapes for resources and slaves, although at least the latter isn't as bad anymore.
 
Why bother? The system of commercial imperialism was much cheaper and more efficient. Make sure trading rights are maintained, ensure that Chinese officials who make trouble for westerners are smacked down and just hang on to the coastal concessions and profit.
 
How about this:
1. Wank the Taiping Rebellion a good bit until Qing authority starts to collapse entirely.
2. Having Taiping forces move on the coastal cities, scaring people a lot.
3. Have Westerners organize the defense of these cities and keep them out of Taiping hands. Basically what the army that became the "Ever Victorious Army" did to keep the Taiping out of Shanghai writ larger.
4. Taiping retreat to Nanjiang and hold a lot of the interior but with various rebellions against their rule that keep them too busy to hit the coast again.
5. Westerners solidify control of coastal cities.
6. Taiping collapses leaving a big fat power vacuum.
7. Various rebels and warlords take over bits of China and the Westerners don't feel like recognizing any of their authority (even nominally) over the various ports that are now in European hands.
8. Various local governments ally with various European governments.

That should do it, at least for a while.
 
How about this:
1. Wank the Taiping Rebellion a good bit until Qing authority starts to collapse entirely.

The thing with the Taiping Rebellion is how absurdly ASB it actually seems when you begin looking at it. Like "okay, so this poor farmer in China gets strange dreams and deludes himself into thinking that he is the little brother of Jesus, and a couple of years down the line, we are seeing a theocratic cult-kingdom in South China and civil war."

If it hadn't been for the fact that it actually happened, most people would likely dismiss it all as absurd.

So, obviously, yes I say let's go with it! :p

2. Having Taiping forces move on the coastal cities, scaring people a lot.
3. Have Westerners organize the defense of these cities and keep them out of Taiping hands. Basically what the army that became the "Ever Victorious Army" did to keep the Taiping out of Shanghai writ larger.
4. Taiping retreat to Nanjiang and hold a lot of the interior but with various rebellions against their rule that keep them too busy to hit the coast again.
5. Westerners solidify control of coastal cities.
6. Taiping collapses leaving a big fat power vacuum.
7. Various rebels and warlords take over bits of China and the Westerners don't feel like recognizing any of their authority (even nominally) over the various ports that are now in European hands.
8. Various local governments ally with various European governments.

That should do it, at least for a while.

Thank you, thank you and thank you. May I use something along these lines?
 
Why bother? The system of commercial imperialism was much cheaper and more efficient. Make sure trading rights are maintained, ensure that Chinese officials who make trouble for westerners are smacked down and just hang on to the coastal concessions and profit.

Unfortunately, the conditions for commercial imperialism in China do not always exist in ATLs.

How about this:
1. Wank the Taiping Rebellion a good bit until Qing authority starts to collapse entirely.
2. Having Taiping forces move on the coastal cities, scaring people a lot.
3. Have Westerners organize the defense of these cities and keep them out of Taiping hands. Basically what the army that became the "Ever Victorious Army" did to keep the Taiping out of Shanghai writ larger.
4. Taiping retreat to Nanjiang and hold a lot of the interior but with various rebellions against their rule that keep them too busy to hit the coast again.
5. Westerners solidify control of coastal cities.
6. Taiping collapses leaving a big fat power vacuum.
7. Various rebels and warlords take over bits of China and the Westerners don't feel like recognizing any of their authority (even nominally) over the various ports that are now in European hands.
8. Various local governments ally with various European governments.

That should do it, at least for a while.

Isn't that more or less why and how most of China in Jared's Decades of Darkness ended up colonized from the late 19th century till the end of the first third of the 20th century?
 
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