Colonization of Australia with a Maori warrior culture in place of the aborigines

Hindsight is 20/20 and the things you stated aren't inventions. They are the culmination of thousands of years of embodied knowledge, experience and chance events.

I know... And there is the fact that some people could have pulled together something halfway through the Mesolithic but it is lost due to glaciation/decay. Hell, for all we know of that period, a buncha proto-Basques in Ireland could have made it to almost Ancient Greek levels before getting iced, or an Egypt-esque civilization developed in Somalia soon after the rise of modern Humanity but was wiped out by hunter gatherers. It's the "we don't know" that gets me.
 
Speaking of Australian crops, what about spices? Certain Tasmannia peppers especially seem something which could be exploited by the Maori and sold to markets in the Indies. Bloodroot (found in Western Australia and Queensland) and maybe the Backhousia myrtles might also be of interest. Repeated harvesting (probably through slave labour) would help increase yields and set the plants on a route toward domestication.

Incidentally, these spices, if they even reach Europe at all before the Age of Discovery, may end up some of the most expensive spices on the table and spur European knowledge and desire of Australia (probably as "Great Java" or something). I can foresee Dutch, Spanish, and Portuguese attempts at conquest. And considering one million Europeans went to Dutch Batavia, I think a large amount would go to Australia as well (since it's inevitable the Europeans will get lucky and conquer at least one statelet).

Australia will thus end up an ethnic hodgepodge of whites, Maori, likely other Pacific peoples (blackbirded Melanesians, other Polynesians), perhaps some Africans imported as slave labour, Malays, Chinese, and the remaining Aboriginals (mostly in the interior). Find a way to get people of Amerindian descent (Mexican immigrants as in the Philippines?) and you'll have people from all the continents blended into one race.
 
Speaking of Australian crops, what about spices? Certain Tasmannia peppers especially seem something which could be exploited by the Maori and sold to markets in the Indies. Bloodroot (found in Western Australia and Queensland) and maybe the Backhousia myrtles might also be of interest. Repeated harvesting (probably through slave labour) would help increase yields and set the plants on a route toward domestication.

Incidentally, these spices, if they even reach Europe at all before the Age of Discovery, may end up some of the most expensive spices on the table and spur European knowledge and desire of Australia (probably as "Great Java" or something). I can foresee Dutch, Spanish, and Portuguese attempts at conquest. And considering one million Europeans went to Dutch Batavia, I think a large amount would go to Australia as well (since it's inevitable the Europeans will get lucky and conquer at least one statelet).

Australia will thus end up an ethnic hodgepodge of whites, Maori, likely other Pacific peoples (blackbirded Melanesians, other Polynesians), perhaps some Africans imported as slave labour, Malays, Chinese, and the remaining Aboriginals (mostly in the interior). Find a way to get people of Amerindian descent (Mexican immigrants as in the Philippines?) and you'll have people from all the continents blended into one race.

Merely because it is a spice doesn't mean it will have value. Grain of Paradise lost value when cubeb and black pepper became more available.

Sichuan pepper and water pepper (that grows in Europe) with the same tingle quality of spices weren't valued either.

The plants of great value have been of great value in Europe since the times of Greece and Rome, they are Indian and East Indies everything else was a substitute (like red peppers) until the real thing could be had.
 
Merely because it is a spice doesn't mean it will have value. Grain of Paradise lost value when cubeb and black pepper became more available
Grains of paradise were slightly weaker in pungency than black pepper, and I believe were also more expensive to produce in sufficient volume. More broadly, it's worth pointing out that tastes change and spices can move in and out of popularity. There's a whole bunch of spices which were once popular in the European palate but lost favour even though they were still available. Even cubeb itself went out of favour, too.

Sichuan pepper and water pepper (that grows in Europe) with the same tingle quality of spices weren't valued either.
Speaking as someone who has tried Sichuan peppers and Tasmannia peppers, the two are quite different in use and purpose. Tasmannia peppers give a much more complex, appealing flavour; Sichuan peppers are good for producing numbness in combination with other spices but not of particular appeal on their own. Both spices produce a kind of numbness (Sichuan peppers probably being stronger, although biting down on a whole Tasmannia pepper berry will leave your tongue numb for minutes or hours). Tasmannia peppers are also notably more pungent than water pepper, particularly the Tasmannia berries.

The plants of great value have been of great value in Europe since the times of Greece and Rome, they are Indian and East Indies everything else was a substitute (like red peppers) until the real thing could be had.
Not really. Even kinds of "true" peppers could go out of favour. Long pepper was abundant, hotter in flavour and probably more commonly used than black pepper in Roman times; it faded from European use after the introduction of chilli peppers.

Overall, which spices are appealing (at least for European trade purposes) does seem to have a certain random element, and they tend to come and go. Cubeb came and went; long pepper came and went. Black pepper was cheaper and second-class to long pepper in Roman times, but grew in popularity from about the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries. Allspice had a heyday in Britain in the second half of the eighteenth century but faded thereafter. Asafoetida was used popularly in Roman times but largely vanished thereafter. Galangal was popular but faded from most of Europe (with a few exceptions). Ditto spikenard, which was widely-used in Roman times and into medieval times, but declined. Mace was widely popular but declined in relative popularity even when nutmeg remained sought-after. And so forth.

Given this kind of variety, I can certainly see a trade in some Australian spices becoming popular for a while, even if it does not last forever.
 
Grains of paradise were slightly weaker in pungency than black pepper, and I believe were also more expensive to produce in sufficient volume. More broadly, it's worth pointing out that tastes change and spices can move in and out of popularity. There's a whole bunch of spices which were once popular in the European palate but lost favour even though they were still available. Even cubeb itself went out of favour, too.


Speaking as someone who has tried Sichuan peppers and Tasmannia peppers, the two are quite different in use and purpose. Tasmannia peppers give a much more complex, appealing flavour; Sichuan peppers are good for producing numbness in combination with other spices but not of particular appeal on their own. Both spices produce a kind of numbness (Sichuan peppers probably being stronger, although biting down on a whole Tasmannia pepper berry will leave your tongue numb for minutes or hours). Tasmannia peppers are also notably more pungent than water pepper, particularly the Tasmannia berries.


Not really. Even kinds of "true" peppers could go out of favour. Long pepper was abundant, hotter in flavour and probably more commonly used than black pepper in Roman times; it faded from European use after the introduction of chilli peppers.

Overall, which spices are appealing (at least for European trade purposes) does seem to have a certain random element, and they tend to come and go. Cubeb came and went; long pepper came and went. Black pepper was cheaper and second-class to long pepper in Roman times, but grew in popularity from about the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries. Allspice had a heyday in Britain in the second half of the eighteenth century but faded thereafter. Asafoetida was used popularly in Roman times but largely vanished thereafter. Galangal was popular but faded from most of Europe (with a few exceptions). Ditto spikenard, which was widely-used in Roman times and into medieval times, but declined. Mace was widely popular but declined in relative popularity even when nutmeg remained sought-after. And so forth.

Given this kind of variety, I can certainly see a trade in some Australian spices becoming popular for a while, even if it does not last forever.

Grain of Paradise has a long history of cultivation and trade related to trans Saharan and direct European trade. It was a cheaper version of pepper and it a disuse came from black as cubeb pepper replacing it.

It remained a minor herb used in beers and mulled wines but it's usage now is a novel herb for "foodies" like tasmanian pepper.
____
I've eaten Tasmanian pepper berry fresh, dried and the leaf dried. Literally grows like a weed here.

It's a nice but it's really a niche spice and flavor that outside of an ATL really I don't see being popular. I mean you seen to forget that it was grown in Cornwall and never caught on and that it got replaced with black pepper right?

A number of plants like lemon myrtle could and would be replaced with just a superior variety of lemon verbena and grown in the outdoors of southern Europe.

There are a number of cheaper and versatile spices that could knock down bushfood spices. Novelty and Native/local is what has the market in Aus growing but truly if it could have caught on it would have.

You mentioned allspice which was utilized by English colonists and spread throughout the world. It's common in most kitchens but that can't be said for the near contemporaries of colonial Australia.

Also globally devils dung remains popular, just not to Europeans
 
Grain of Paradise has a long history of cultivation and trade related to trans Saharan and direct European trade. It was a cheaper version of pepper and it a disuse came from black as cubeb pepper replacing it.
The funny thing is that grains of paradise and black pepper were both traded for a long time and were both valuable. Grains of paradise faded eventually, of course, but then so did galangal and asafoetida, and the latter did so without the supposed competition from black pepper. The fact is that tastes do change. Not just for spices, as witness when garum faded from post-Roman cuisine except for a couple of niche products.

It's a nice but it's really a niche spice and flavor that outside of an ATL really I don't see being popular. I mean you seen to forget that it was grown in Cornwall and never caught on and that it got replaced with black pepper right?
Not at all. It spread to Cornwall in the last couple of centuries from some European gardener or other - no-one's sure exactly when - and was adopted as a local spice from there. Without anyone from Australia telling them about its use as a spice. It developed just from people trying it locally.

The problem with Tasmanian peppers is that there's simply not enough cultivation of it to become a mass spice yet; at first it needed to be wild-harvested and then worked out how to cultivate it at a suitably consistent quality. It is available increasingly around the world - I've seen advertisements for it in New York - but it remains niche because cultivation is spreading slowly.

There are a number of cheaper and versatile spices that could knock down bushfood spices. Novelty and Native/local is what has the market in Aus growing but truly if it could have caught on it would have.
With bushfood spices, it really is too early to tell. Early European settlers to Australia really did have an aversion to trying the local produce, thinking that familiar European produce was superior, which is why macadamias were first domesticated in Hawaii rather than in Australia. They were not really trying it in a mass way until the 1970s/1980s, and then it's a matter of developing enough reliable supply in the modern era (which is one where much larger production is needed than for spices developed a few centuries ago).

You mentioned allspice which was utilized by English colonists and spread throughout the world. It's common in most kitchens but that can't be said for the near contemporaries of colonial Australia.
Allspice has had a few centuries to spread; Christopher Columbus encountered it. Allspice was also the product of a longer tradition of domestication and usage even before that. Bushfood spices really have had a few decades, and only became available in an era where the development of new spices was a matter of mass production rather than high-margin production. It's not really a valid comparison. Check back in in a century or two to see where bushfood spices end up.
 
The funny thing is that grains of paradise and black pepper were both traded for a long time and were both valuable. Grains of paradise faded eventually, of course, but then so did galangal and asafoetida, and the latter did so without the supposed competition from black pepper. The fact is that tastes do change. Not just for spices, as witness when garum faded from post-Roman cuisine except for a couple of niche products.


Not at all. It spread to Cornwall in the last couple of centuries from some European gardener or other - no-one's sure exactly when - and was adopted as a local spice from there. Without anyone from Australia telling them about its use as a spice. It developed just from people trying it locally.

The problem with Tasmanian peppers is that there's simply not enough cultivation of it to become a mass spice yet; at first it needed to be wild-harvested and then worked out how to cultivate it at a suitably consistent quality. It is available increasingly around the world - I've seen advertisements for it in New York - but it remains niche because cultivation is spreading slowly.


With bushfood spices, it really is too early to tell. Early European settlers to Australia really did have an aversion to trying the local produce, thinking that familiar European produce was superior, which is why macadamias were first domesticated in Hawaii rather than in Australia. They were not really trying it in a mass way until the 1970s/1980s, and then it's a matter of developing enough reliable supply in the modern era (which is one where much larger production is needed than for spices developed a few centuries ago).


Allspice has had a few centuries to spread; Christopher Columbus encountered it. Allspice was also the product of a longer tradition of domestication and usage even before that. Bushfood spices really have had a few decades, and only became available in an era where the development of new spices was a matter of mass production rather than high-margin production. It's not really a valid comparison. Check back in in a century or two to see where bushfood spices end up.

galangal and asafoetida are still common spices used broadly and traded internationally in South and southeast Asia and the diaspora and restaurants.

The value of grains of Paradise was reduced with black pepper and East predicates on the limited supply of black pepper.

Grains of Paradise was an important spice in 15.th century Europe, when spices were high in demand, but the sea route to India had not yet been discovered. The West African coast got its name pepper coast because the grains of paradise were traded there. Later, in the Renaissance, when pepper had outrun them as the favourite kitchen spice, grains of paradise were common as beer flavouring.

Since then, the importance of this spice has vanished to quite zero in our days;
http://gernot-katzers-spice-pages.com/engl/Afra_mel.html

Do you have any sources that state that there was no knowledge of its use as a spice? In spite of the wealth of botanical knowledge botanists, explorers, plant hunters and other writers have mention in their time in Australia?

Tasmanian pepper can be purchased from most online retailers of spices, it a not hard to grow, it's use as a wild harvest crop comes from it being simply hedge trimmed and the consistency of Tasmanian pepper is being worked out with superior strains being vegetative propagated which is neither a new technology nor an innovation unique to this plant.

The use and exploitation of Australian plants is extensive and old, it's disingenuous to state the colonies were not.actively seeking unique plants to sell

https://archive.org/stream/usefulnativeplan1889maid/usefulnativeplan1889maid_djvu.txt

The drupe is used as a condiment, being a fair substitute for
pepper, or rather allspice The leaves and bark also have a hot,
biting, cinnamon-like taste

The macadamia was a unique nut grown in the sub and true tropics with a high fat content and lightly sweet flavor and texture unique from all other nuts. Comparing it to a substitute is a false equivalency.

I think it's great that you made an ATL that shows the diversity of Australian edible flora and means I commend the time it took to make the time line. However the fact remains fact, it's not a major spice and the potential of it will be niche in a world of black pepper.

Don't need centuries, sassafras is niche as well. Nothing wrong with that, just here to provide you context.
 
galangal and asafoetida are still common spices used broadly and traded internationally in South and southeast Asia and the diaspora and restaurants.
Indeed. However, they were also both popular in Europe in previous times (asafoetida in Roman times, galangal more recently), and both of those gradually lost interest over time, and this was not due to lack of availability. Cubeb was popular for a while when imported from what is now modern Indonesia, but itself also faded even though available.

The value of grains of Paradise was reduced with black pepper and East predicates on the limited supply of black pepper.
The particular value of grains of paradise was reduced with greater supply, of course, but there's more going on with changing tastes than that. Long pepper was also available - and which is flavoured principally by piperine, the same compound which flavours black pepper - but long pepper faded too. Black pepper was second fiddle to long pepper in Roman times (sold for cheaper) while from about the fifteenth or sixteenth century it overtook long pepper. My point is simply that tastes in spices vary over time, and that they could reasonably be expected to change in ATLs simply through the vagaries of what's available, who exploits them, and changing cultural preferences.

Do you have any sources that state that there was no knowledge of its use as a spice? In spite of the wealth of botanical knowledge botanists, explorers, plant hunters and other writers have mention in their time in Australia?
The knowledge of Tasmanian pepper as a spice certainly existed in some quarters in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. In terms of introduction to Cornwall in particular, if the Australian connection was known when the plant was introduced, it was certainly forgotten afterwards. There was some excitement amongst bushfood enthusiasts when the connection was recently (last 2-3 decades) rediscovered and it was realised that Cornish pepper was the same plant as Tasmanian pepper, because the use of it in Cornish cuisine counted as "traditional usage" for food standards. This overcame a problem of getting Tasmanian peppers registered as a spice in the EU; they contain small amounts of safrole which is permitted in traditional spices (e.g. cinnamon contains some) but which can otherwise lead to a novel food being banned within the EU. Unfortunately, the link to that discussion is long dead, though I recorded the content in my notes several years ago when researching LoRaG.

Tasmanian pepper can be purchased from most online retailers of spices, it a not hard to grow, it's use as a wild harvest crop comes from it being simply hedge trimmed and the consistency of Tasmanian pepper is being worked out with superior strains being vegetative propagated which is neither a new technology nor an innovation unique to this plant.

The use and exploitation of Australian plants is extensive and old, it's disingenuous to state the colonies were not.actively seeking unique plants to sell

https://archive.org/stream/usefulnativeplan1889maid/usefulnativeplan1889maid_djvu.txt
Of course vegetative propagation is not new technology; the point is that it wasn't being applied to Tasmanian peppers until the 1970s/1980s, even though it could have been.

More broadly, the point I was making is that until recently there was relatively limited interest in exploiting Australian foods, and a tendency to dismiss them in favour of more familiar European tastes. To a degree this still continues today. Yes, there were individuals such as the one you listed there who catalogued what was available, but they were rare and not much taken up even within Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tucker
http://www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2014/12/30/4150705.htm
http://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2008/07/01/about-native-australian-food

The macadamia was a unique nut grown in the sub and true tropics with a high fat content and lightly sweet flavor and texture unique from all other nuts. Comparing it to a substitute is a false equivalency.
The point is that the macadamia was known of in nineteenth-century Australia, and there was some small-scale plantations there - but that it was non-Australians in Hawaii who placed greater emphasis on its potential and grew it there and exported it, to the point that there are still people today who think that macadamias are native to Hawaii rather than Australia. And macadamias were (afaik) the most used Australian native plant during the nineteenth century (for culinary purposes, anyway). This is an example of how Europeans in Australia, used to the less strong flavours of European cuisine of the time, were less inclined to exploit Australian native plants, even when others (Americans) found them appealing.

I think it's great that you made an ATL that shows the diversity of Australian edible flora and means I commend the time it took to make the time line. However the fact remains fact, it's not a major spice and the potential of it will be niche in a world of black pepper.
Here we disagree. I think that given that the way in which taste in spices and cuisine have varied over time (e.g. preference for stronger flavours, then weaker flavours, or different kinds of spices), the preferences which exist now need not always be so.

Don't need centuries, sassafras is niche as well. Nothing wrong with that, just here to provide you context.
Certainly not every possible spice is going to make it as a mass-market product. But spices which were niche can become mainstream (e.g. allspice went that way in the eighteenth century), and spices which were mainstream can become niche (e.g. asafoetida for European export purposes, though it obviously remains mainstream in South Asian and SE Asian cuisine). For that matter, sassafras was extremely valuable as an export to Europe for a period in the seventeenth century, though it faded thereafter (not vanished, but reverted to niche). Hence my view remains that what is perceived as a valuable spice will vary both over time and by region.
 
Indeed. However, they were also both popular in Europe in previous times (asafoetida in Roman times, galangal more recently), and both of those gradually lost interest over time, and this was not due to lack of availability. Cubeb was popular for a while when imported from what is now modern Indonesia, but itself also faded even though available.


The particular value of grains of paradise was reduced with greater supply, of course, but there's more going on with changing tastes than that. Long pepper was also available - and which is flavoured principally by piperine, the same compound which flavours black pepper - but long pepper faded too. Black pepper was second fiddle to long pepper in Roman times (sold for cheaper) while from about the fifteenth or sixteenth century it overtook long pepper. My point is simply that tastes in spices vary over time, and that they could reasonably be expected to change in ATLs simply through the vagaries of what's available, who exploits them, and changing cultural preferences.


The knowledge of Tasmanian pepper as a spice certainly existed in some quarters in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. In terms of introduction to Cornwall in particular, if the Australian connection was known when the plant was introduced, it was certainly forgotten afterwards. There was some excitement amongst bushfood enthusiasts when the connection was recently (last 2-3 decades) rediscovered and it was realised that Cornish pepper was the same plant as Tasmanian pepper, because the use of it in Cornish cuisine counted as "traditional usage" for food standards. This overcame a problem of getting Tasmanian peppers registered as a spice in the EU; they contain small amounts of safrole which is permitted in traditional spices (e.g. cinnamon contains some) but which can otherwise lead to a novel food being banned within the EU. Unfortunately, the link to that discussion is long dead, though I recorded the content in my notes several years ago when researching LoRaG.


Of course vegetative propagation is not new technology; the point is that it wasn't being applied to Tasmanian peppers until the 1970s/1980s, even though it could have been.

More broadly, the point I was making is that until recently there was relatively limited interest in exploiting Australian foods, and a tendency to dismiss them in favour of more familiar European tastes. To a degree this still continues today. Yes, there were individuals such as the one you listed there who catalogued what was available, but they were rare and not much taken up even within Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tucker
http://www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2014/12/30/4150705.htm
http://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2008/07/01/about-native-australian-food


The point is that the macadamia was known of in nineteenth-century Australia, and there was some small-scale plantations there - but that it was non-Australians in Hawaii who placed greater emphasis on its potential and grew it there and exported it, to the point that there are still people today who think that macadamias are native to Hawaii rather than Australia. And macadamias were (afaik) the most used Australian native plant during the nineteenth century (for culinary purposes, anyway). This is an example of how Europeans in Australia, used to the less strong flavours of European cuisine of the time, were less inclined to exploit Australian native plants, even when others (Americans) found them appealing.


Here we disagree. I think that given that the way in which taste in spices and cuisine have varied over time (e.g. preference for stronger flavours, then weaker flavours, or different kinds of spices), the preferences which exist now need not always be so.


Certainly not every possible spice is going to make it as a mass-market product. But spices which were niche can become mainstream (e.g. allspice went that way in the eighteenth century), and spices which were mainstream can become niche (e.g. asafoetida for European export purposes, though it obviously remains mainstream in South Asian and SE Asian cuisine). For that matter, sassafras was extremely valuable as an export to Europe for a period in the seventeenth century, though it faded thereafter (not vanished, but reverted to niche). Hence my view remains that what is perceived as a valuable spice will vary both over time and by region.

You're not basing your statements on fact. The fall of Long Pepper was to the Chili, the long pepper was used for its exceptional heat and was expensive but with the chili intense heat was not necessary (it dropped to 1/12th the price of black pepper as a result). At this same time the expansion of black pepper into more northerly west coast of India and further inland as well as Island Southeast Asia and Madagascar creating opportunities for a more mild "relish" unique in its lighter taste and thus black pepper became an affordable spice -the standard spice- we see around the world.

I'm aware of the safrole controversies, the growth of the bushfood movement and the history of spices globally. I don't need the links but what I am saying is your information is completely unfounded.

The basis of Macadamia in Hawaii was as a dainty to wealthy sugar barons who had the labor to crack through the hard nut. Its value only was recognized one the lowlands had been fully occupied by pineapple, sugarcane and more intense cool sensitive crops. The Macadamia plantation was planted van Tassel in 1925 using Purvis and Jordan trees as stock and in 1924 Naquin planted out trials for crops in subpar sugarcane land. It was as much a crop created out of need for late comer whites who received government land and only later after bringing in the nut to the attention of sugar barons and scientists did it receive fair support of agriculturists in the Universities and government support.

Its completely different, it was a snack for the wealthy that became a primer nut. Its value is not of a replacement and its cultivation occurred because of limitations of cultivatable crops in uplands where the main export of the state could not be grown.

Sassafras was an important plant for its roots for root beer not its spice usage as file, that is the aspect I am referring to.

Again you counter arguments fall flat to someone who knows about spice history and crop experimentation/domestication/marketing/distribution. Your ATL is fine, its just not all that realistic, bushfood spices will be in vogue maybe and trendy internationally in a few years but it'll never be a major spice and it never would be.
 
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You're not basing your statements on fact. The fall of Long Pepper was to the Chili, the long pepper was used for its exceptional heat and was expensive but with the chili intense heat was not necessary (it dropped to 1/12th the price of black pepper as a result). At this same time the expansion of black pepper into more northerly west coast of India and further inland as well as Island Southeast Asia and Madagascar creating opportunities for a more mild "relish" unique in its lighter taste and thus black pepper became an affordable spice -the standard spice- we see around the world.
Que? I'm aware of chilli peppers playing a role too. At various points upthread I've referred to both chilli pepper and black pepper as playing a role in the demise of long pepper. I also understand that long pepper is not just a more intense heat than black pepper, since it has a more complex flavour (reportedly, I haven't managed to try this particular spice yet).

I'm aware of the safrole controversies, the growth of the bushfood movement and the history of spices globally. I don't need the links but what I am saying is your information is completely unfounded.
If you have any reliable sources on how and when Cornish peppers were adopted (and, if later, replaced by black pepper), I'd appreciate references for them. The ones I've read (as per above) assumed that it was introduced as an ornamental into gardens and went wild (which it certainly has) and was then adopted as a spice from there. Of course, they were assuming that it happened this way because of the lack of realisation that Cornish peppers were the same plant as It may well have happened completely differently, which is why I'd welcome a more reliable source if you know of one.

More broadly, if you don't attribute it to changing tastes, I'd appreciate your view on why formerly popular spices such as galangal and asafoetida went out of vogue (mostly) in Europe.

The basis of Macadamia in Hawaii was as a dainty to wealthy sugar barons who had the labor to crack through the hard nut. Its value only was recognized one the lowlands had been fully occupied by pineapple, sugarcane and more intense cool sensitive crops. The Macadamia plantation was planted van Tassel in 1925 using Purvis and Jordan trees as stock and in 1924 Naquin planted out trials for crops in subpar sugarcane land. It was as much a crop created out of need for late comer whites who received government land and only later after bringing in the nut to the attention of sugar barons and scientists did it receive fair support of agriculturists in the Universities and government support.
I'm aware of Van Tassel and (at least in broad strokes) the government land lease support he received. The point remains that Hawaii was making an Australian native crop more successful as an export crop at a time when Australians were unable to market macadamias on a wide scale even within Australia. Of course macadamia was not a replacement crop, but as far as I know the general attitude of Australian plants being inferior persisted in Australia until well into the twentieth century (with rare exceptions).

Again you counter arguments fall flat to someone who knows about spice history and crop experimentation/domestication/marketing/distribution. Your ATL is fine, its just not all that realistic, bushfood spices will be in vogue maybe and trendy internationally in a few years but it'll never be a major spice and it never would be.
As noted, we disagree. In my experience, Tasmanian peppers and/or Dorrigo peppers are preferred by the majority of people who have the choice of those or black pepper, in situations where they haven't paid for either. I base this on providing them to guests over a number of years, guests from both Australia and overseas, and without making any attempt to make trying them appear patriotic or pro-Australian, and with repeat guests who have used them for years and are not simply being polite about using them because offered (indeed, having asked for supplier details and ordering them themselves). Is this a biased sample? Perhaps, but I haven't deliberately chosen people who are interested in bushfoods, so if there is any bias, it's unconscious and not linked to country of origin.

In terms of modern commercial exploitation, however, at the moment these spices remain niche both because of limited supply, wild-harvesting and consequent high cost. In Australia, Tasmanian peppers cost approximately 7 times the price of black pepper, so naturally they remain niche even if preferred. In turn, they are expensive because there is insufficient cultivation and they are mostly wild-harvested, with a total production of Tasmanian peppers of perhaps 4 tonnes per year (source: here). Cultivation is spreading slowly for Tasmanian peppers, mostly for the overseas market (as per previous source); I haven't read much of anything about Dorrigo peppers being cultivated successfully for export. Increasing cultivation will lead to both more reliable supply, but also cheaper cost because of more efficient harvesting, economies of scale, etc.

Given what has been observed of their popularity with those who have tried them, and the slow but steady increase in cultivation, I think it's reasonable to expect that they can grow in popularity to a major spice. Not guaranteed, of course, but entirely reasonable.
 
Que? I'm aware of chilli peppers playing a role too. At various points upthread I've referred to both chilli pepper and black pepper as playing a role in the demise of long pepper. I also understand that long pepper is not just a more intense heat than black pepper, since it has a more complex flavour (reportedly, I haven't managed to try this particular spice yet).


If you have any reliable sources on how and when Cornish peppers were adopted (and, if later, replaced by black pepper), I'd appreciate references for them. The ones I've read (as per above) assumed that it was introduced as an ornamental into gardens and went wild (which it certainly has) and was then adopted as a spice from there. Of course, they were assuming that it happened this way because of the lack of realisation that Cornish peppers were the same plant as It may well have happened completely differently, which is why I'd welcome a more reliable source if you know of one.

More broadly, if you don't attribute it to changing tastes, I'd appreciate your view on why formerly popular spices such as galangal and asafoetida went out of vogue (mostly) in Europe.


I'm aware of Van Tassel and (at least in broad strokes) the government land lease support he received. The point remains that Hawaii was making an Australian native crop more successful as an export crop at a time when Australians were unable to market macadamias on a wide scale even within Australia. Of course macadamia was not a replacement crop, but as far as I know the general attitude of Australian plants being inferior persisted in Australia until well into the twentieth century (with rare exceptions).


As noted, we disagree. In my experience, Tasmanian peppers and/or Dorrigo peppers are preferred by the majority of people who have the choice of those or black pepper, in situations where they haven't paid for either. I base this on providing them to guests over a number of years, guests from both Australia and overseas, and without making any attempt to make trying them appear patriotic or pro-Australian, and with repeat guests who have used them for years and are not simply being polite about using them because offered (indeed, having asked for supplier details and ordering them themselves). Is this a biased sample? Perhaps, but I haven't deliberately chosen people who are interested in bushfoods, so if there is any bias, it's unconscious and not linked to country of origin.

In terms of modern commercial exploitation, however, at the moment these spices remain niche both because of limited supply, wild-harvesting and consequent high cost. In Australia, Tasmanian peppers cost approximately 7 times the price of black pepper, so naturally they remain niche even if preferred. In turn, they are expensive because there is insufficient cultivation and they are mostly wild-harvested, with a total production of Tasmanian peppers of perhaps 4 tonnes per year (source: here). Cultivation is spreading slowly for Tasmanian peppers, mostly for the overseas market (as per previous source); I haven't read much of anything about Dorrigo peppers being cultivated successfully for export. Increasing cultivation will lead to both more reliable supply, but also cheaper cost because of more efficient harvesting, economies of scale, etc.

Given what has been observed of their popularity with those who have tried them, and the slow but steady increase in cultivation, I think it's reasonable to expect that they can grow in popularity to a major spice. Not guaranteed, of course, but entirely reasonable.
The use and mention of Long Pepper was for its heat culinarily, its use was greatly diminished with chili peppers and black pepper was used for its more subtle/muted flavors
https://books.google.com/books?id=7...RAhUDw2MKHdWRDwIQ6AEIKjAC#v=onepage&q&f=false

Drimys Aromatica is its old name and everyone knew to eat it, it was common knowledge in 1908
https://books.google.com/books?id=S...RAhVW62MKHdaXAUEQ6AEILjAE#v=onepage&q&f=false

it fell out of use because its flavor, the plants common name was "Devil's Pepperbush" it was biting and intense not like black pepper which was more subtle. The general belief of inferiority of Australian plants is quite false, early botanists and plant hunters sought novel flowers and plants for gardeners in the UK. They constantly sought plants around the world, some like fragrant geraniums were used as flavorings that while popular at certain points were never of value because they were easily grown in the UK and tasted like other things rather than something unique.

Macadamia was not necessarily loathed, something tasty was tasty regardless of its origin. Flowers and plants of Western Australia mentioned Quandong that it was made into jams and chutneys and that is was sold locally and abroad, with international buyers creating a market that was greater than the wild stands that sustained local demands. Macadamia was according to Joseph Maiden eagerly bought, local demand was fulfilled with wild and aboriginal managed stands.

Tasmanian Pepper has grown with the move for local and native foods in Australia. Its price is so high in comparison to pepper because pepper is easily the most cultivated spice on earth, the demands of the plant are extremely low, its price has to do with the desires to limit a flood in the market reducing its prices until demand rose.
 
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Drimys Aromatica is its old name and everyone knew to eat it, it was common knowledge in 1908
https://books.google.com/books?id=S...RAhVW62MKHdaXAUEQ6AEILjAE#v=onepage&q&f=false

it fell out of use because its flavor, the plants common name was "Devil's Pepperbush" it was biting and intense not like black pepper which was more subtle. The general belief of inferiority of Australian plants is quite false, early botanists and plant hunters sought novel flowers and plants for gardeners in the UK. They constantly sought plants around the world, some like fragrant geraniums were used as flavorings that while popular at certain points were never of value because they were easily grown in the UK and tasted like other things rather than something unique.
Thank you for the more accurate information about early use of Tasmanian peppers. Clearly what is written about things on other sites is incorrect.

Tasmanian Pepper has grown with the move for local and native foods in Australia. Its price is so high in comparison to pepper because pepper is easily the most cultivated spice on earth, the demands of the plant are extremely low, its price has to do with the desires to limit a flood in the market reducing its prices until demand rose.
Certainly the move for local foods was what started the resurgence in Tasmanian and Dorrigo peppers in Australia. Likewise, when there's only a limited supply, producers will naturally charge as high a price as they think the market will bear.

However, it's also plain that the demand is not limited to Australia and a desire for local and native foods here. As witness it being exported around significant parts of the world, and, from what I can find from online sources, it is still used in Cornwall where it is available at a decent price because it can be grown locally (e.g. here or here). Moreover, it does not appear to be the case that producers are withholding supply to maintain the price or avoid flooding the market. Online retailers of Tasmanian and Dorrigo peppers are regularly out of stock for significant parts of the year, when the last wild harvest has been fully sold. And articles such as the one I linked to in my last post also demonstrate that while the present demand may be low in comparison to current major spices, it is still significantly higher than present supply. (Tastes in pungency may have changed since it was labelled the Devil's pepperbush a century or more ago; certainly I haven't heard any criticism of the amount of heat in Tasmanian peppers from those who have tried them.)

Based on this, I expect that the market for Tasmanian peppers (and possibly Dorrigo peppers) will continue to grow over the next few years.

Do I think that this means that Tasmanian peppers may one day replace black pepper as the most traded spice in the world? No, not from where things are now. But my view remains that there is plenty of potential for growth there.
 
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