Collaborative timeline: Dunes of the Desert, a Timeline without Islam

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Tomislav Addai, Dec 8, 2018.

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  1. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    So anyone willing to write-up Britain, France, Germany and Scandinavia? :)
     
  2. Goldensilver81 Well-Known Member

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    i fuc### wished i could i really do since i love your timeline , but my own timeline , youtube channel and university wont let me
     
  3. Yggdrasillur2 New Member

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    Well I could try to help you out a bit with the north of europe, but first I would like to share some general observations... So with the mediterrean being a fully christian lake, it will be even more vital than in OTL. Without the religiously motivated piracy wars, trade will flow in abundance bringing ideas, technologies, news and exotic goods from the east at a far faster pace, meaning the dark ages of western europe will not be as dark. I mean just imagine the possibility of indian or as we call it "arabic numerals" arriving hundreds of years earlier. However for the impact on northern and eastern europe I guess the history will be pretty much the same as OTL so far. With one exception I noticed the scandinavian state in modern day portugal, now this will change everything and as i guess is your intention make everything more similar to OTL.

    So to explain a bit about the nordic culture, the nordic countries was a very rough place to live with cold and long winters meaning that fishing and hunting was important for survival. This made the nordic societies very strong in boat building and warfare. When the fishing went bad the northmen had to find other ways of surviving which they found in trade, creating a vast trade network throughout europe. By their trading they would also get alot of intelligence about military strength of different places and hey why trade when you can just take? That's basically how the pre christian vikings resonated.

    How could then the vikings get such power? Well the main answer would be the longship, the epitome of naval power of the time, with it's limited size, speed and manuverability made it a perfect vessel for amphibious assaults and entering small rivers while still being capable of travelling great distances. The possibility to go from being friendly merchants (with exotic materials such as tin, iron, fur, leather, ivory and the "gold of the baltics" amber) to suddenly becoming deadly raiders and conquerors would make them unpredictable. This together with their brutal behaviour spurred by their rough lives in the north would come to spread fear over medieval europe. Another important thing for the success of the northmen was the sagas, the oral tradition mixing stories of adventure, mythology, history and bravery inspiring others to head for the seas.

    The longships design and warfare style of the scandinavians meant the scandinavians would have their biggest sucess along the coasts and rivers such as in russia and britain. With a maritime focused viking state in portugal with pretty much safe borders in the mountanious north and east and an even richer mediterrean it would be impossible for the vikings to stay away we would see a huge amount of slave-raids and plunderings in the heart of christendom. This in turn would unite at least most likely the southern and eastern iberian states but they would have strong support from all mediterrean powers even the pope since the trade would be so vital to christendom. The luso-scandinavian state would therefore soon adopt christianity and even though plunder and pirate raids into the mediterrean would probably continue for some time the luso-scandinavian kingdom would be forced by the pope to turn more toward trade. Meanwhile the luso-scandinavians would explore the coast of bláland(litteraly blueland i.e africa, since dark in old norse was called blue and the innabitants was called blámaðr,blue men) and eventually stumble upon the deltas of gambia, senegal and guinea bissau, with big populations living close to the coast and an underdeveloped military force, perfect for the viking style warfare. Colonies would be created along the islands and coastline and from there making raids along the rivers. The west african explorations will mean that the luso-scandinavians find an alternative to the saharan route being able to bring gold and slaves to trade against spices in the mediterrean and we would probably even see the vikings reaching as far as to the niger river already in the 12th-13th century. Technologically the increased contact of the northmen with the mediterrean would mean the eventual adaption of the triangular sail, so common in the mediterrean, yet so critical for the future age of exploration by making it possible to sail against the wind. Eventually also the compass by the 1300s.

    As for the scandinavians back in scandinavia, the advent of christianity would mean that both norway and denmark get stable heriditary kingdoms, while swedes and geets would fight until the final consolidation in the early 12th century. Meanwhile however the piracy and raids from the east mainly the baltics and finland would be problematic for the swedish and north german merchants wanting to participate in the fur trade. This would therefore lead to something similar to the northern crusades(not sure if the crusades really exist without the muslim conquests but holy or not the conquests would happen and religion would be a nice excuse). So sweden would conquer and integrate finland and parts of russia, while denmark and the north german states would go for the baltic lands.

    So what we will have in northern germany is a very powerful trade league called the hansa and they would strive to control the trade in the baltics with strong influence in the scandinavian kingdoms. At some point this influence will be so strong that the scandinavian royalties feel threatened and through a series of marriages they form the kalmar union. A union meant to counter the german influences and keep the nordic countries independent yet with more and more power concentrated around the danish monarch. The union would serve it's purpose and keep the nordic countries independent but eventually the emerging power of sweden would be to big and they would break free.

    I realised the luso-scandinavian kingdom in iberia even though they would eventually most likley stumble upon the americas in the future, it would also mean that there is a possibility that through trade with the scandinavian communities of ireland and iceland that the sagas of vinland would enter iberia. These where the stories of how leif eriksson on his mission to preach christianity in greenland(named like that, in order to attract people to go there) stumbles upon vinland(named after the wines found there), and the following journeys and meetings with the inhabitants, called skraelings. This would lead to the knowledge of land in the west already by the 1100-1300s but I leave it to you to decide since it is a very important decision when the european colonisation would start.

    Another interesting question would be how big impact slavery would get in this TL since a big reason that slavery was accepted in iberia compared to the rest of europe was because of the arabic slave trade,
     
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  4. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    The Luso-Scandinavian kingdom by this time was made to be an analogue of the Siculo-Normans and the Kingdom of Two Sicilies :). Indeed, with Viking navigation skill and cultural contact with Icelanders, Luso-Vikings may (or may not) head up for an earlier colonization of the Carribean :). But yes, without Reconquista and naval capacity, Lusitiania or Portugal, could start doing "their stuff" much earlier on... with serious implications
     
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  5. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    No one is really willing to write-up Scandinavia, Britain and Francis?
     
  6. Goldensilver81 Well-Known Member

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    they will , and YASS this can continue
     
  7. Threadmarks: Chapter 69: A Norse Conquest of England

    Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    Hello folks, I am back and have decided to finish off Europe.

    Between the Alps and the Rhone is the Kingdom of Two Burgundies. Relatively distinct are the regions of Provence, known for its lavender and pleasant weather, and the highland region of Savoy.

    Continuing with Aquitain, this feudal kingdom can be localized between the rivers of Loire and Rhone, and the Pyrennees. With its capital at Tolosa, the realm remains however fractured between powerful vassals, who will soon break free. Powerful duchies emerge, such as that of Gascony, Septimania/Gothia. These dukes are very powerful contenders of royal power, and Aquitain royal control barely extends into these semi-independent duchies.

    While the dukes are a very important element in the society of Aquitain, so is the Church and especially the cities. The old Roman network of cities was preserved, and many grew as they became seats of ecclesiastical or feudal power. The urban culture was especially strong on the Septimanian (1) coast, from Tolosa to Marselha (2). In the case of Montpelier, the citizens got control of its surroundings rather than any lesser vassal of the Marchwarden of Septimania. In other cases, such as Auch, parts of the country were given to the Church (as part of the policy to weaken down the extensive power of the vassal dukes). All in all, however, the Church was relatively weak in power and influence in Aquitain, in comparison to other neighbouring realms.

    Linguistically, Aquitain was almost exclusively Romance-speaking, with Occitan/ Lengadocien being the form spoken in Tolosa; the rival Gascon variety was spoken in Bordeu and along the Atlantic coast; and Taraconese was spoken beyond the Pyrenees. Furthermore, Pointevin, a form of the Oïl languages was spoken in the region of Poitou to the south of the Loire Delta. Aquitain had also two non-Romance languages within its borders: the Basques in southern Gascony and the Arverns in the highlands of the Massif Central.

    The peninsula of Armorica was home to another Celtic nation, the Bretons. Brittany preserved its independence, as a Duchy outside of the suzerainty of Neustrian kings. Bretons sought to push further eastwards, to encompass not only Cotentin, but also Calvados and on the Loire valley into Anjou and Maine.

    The kingdom of Neustria (Neûtrie) is now based around the city of Paris, and extends between the Loire and the Meuse. In comparison to its southern neighbour, Neustria features much stronger Germanic influence and is a much more rural and agrarian country. This translates into a stronger influence of the church and nobles, and less liberties of the few free cities there exist in Neustria. As for Normandy, the Viking chieftains have been turned into Dukes and reign over their own small duchy to the east of the Seine estuary. Similar to the south, also in the north, royal power was checked by the authority of the Dukes of Normandy, Anjou, Burgundy, Flanders and Vermandois.

    Reims, not France was the coronation city of the Neustrian kings, due to it being the see of the primate of Gallia Belgica; the most senior archbishop of the kingdom; and the archbishop was landed with the surrounding county.

    Flanders was culturally distinct from the rest of the kingdom, speaking a Germanic variety (Flemish) and was highly prosperous due to its textile industry and linen and wool trade; the city of Ghent became a city-state.

    Across the Channel, we arrive to the British Isles. The kingdom of England, was briegfly incorporated by the Danish Cnut into his North Sea Empire, encompassing also Denmark and Norway; however, the Danish rule was interrupted by the house of Godwinson; after the death of Edward the Confessor, the Norwegian Harald Hardrada lay claim to the English crown.

    Due to a weakened England in general, the Norwegians were able to win the Battle at Stamford Bridge (3). The new Norse victors move the capital to Jorvik (4), which now speaks a North Germanic variety called Jorvikish.

    Resistance to the Norse conquest was particularly strong in Wessex and Mercia, where it was aided by Welsh and Cornish allies. Along the frontier, a handful of counties remained independent.

    These western fringes of the British Isles remain as they were, without any major changes, save for perhaps some regroupings of the petty kingdoms in Wales. The most important of them were Deheurbath and Gwynedd.

    The northern part of the British Isles remains also disunited; the Welsh kingdom of Strathclyde encompassing Cumbria and Galloway as well, while Scotland being the major contender in Lothian, Fife, but also pushing into Northumberland. The region of Inverness is still held by the Dukes of Moray, while the Isle of Man, the Hebrides, the Orkneys and the Shetlands are controlled by the Earldom of the Isles.

    In linguistic terms, the regions to the south of the Firth of Forth – Lothian and Northumbria- spoke Anglish, while the lands further north spoke Gaelic. Furthermore, Cumbric, a relative of Welsh could be heard especially in the mountains of Cumbria but also in the rest of Strathclyde, where it was however being gradually displaced by Gaelic.

    The Scottish monarchs were feeling increasingly uneasy of the Norsemen neighbours from all sides: to the west was the Lordship of the Isles, while to the south was Viking England. The scots welcomed Anglic refugees fleeing from Viking yoke; these farmers and townsfolk were settled predominantly in Lothian.

    Scottish society at this time was predominantly rural, with now towns or cities, just oppida, which were seats of powerful clan chiefs. Those chiefs enjoyed a relatively high authority and autonomy from royal control.

    Ultimately, Ireland remains as well disunited into a handful of quarrelling petty kingdoms, such as Leinster, Munster, Connaught, Aileach, Ulster, Argiall and Mide. Norse settlement of Ireland takes the form of the establishment of cities such as Dublin, Wexford, Waterford and Cork, which become major centres of trade in Ireland.
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    Languages of western Europe. notice surviving Celts in Auvergne and surviving Britano-Romans in the Severn area.
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    A political map of western Europe. Notice the fragmented left coast of Britain
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    Forms of government in western Europe. Mostly feudal.


    (1) Also known as Lengadoc (Languedoc) together with Catalonia.

    (2) Provensal for Marseilles

    (3) Thus we have a Norwegian, not a Norman conquest of England. As a result, English (or Anglish) is a much more Germanic tongue, with much less French and Latin borrowings, yet a more Scnadinavian influence.

    (4) York
     
  8. Threadmarks: Chapter 70: The Legacy of Widukind and the Establishment of Vinland

    Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    Apart from engaging intensively into affairs in Britiain, the Norsemen were doing their own thing in the North Atlantic as well.

    The very beginning of the century was marked by Norse discovery of Vinland. (1). Initial settlers became attracted to the large amount of unclaimed land, plenty of space, merely contested by occasional parties of Beothuk hunter-gatherers. A large number of the settlers in Vinland originated from either Greenland, Iceland, but also from the Faroes and Norway.

    The earliest settlement of Erikshófn (2) had upon its foundation a population of a mere hundred people; gradual growth by attracting more Norse settlers resulted in founding of more villages to not only in the proximity of Erikshófn but also on the Anticosti island. By the middle of the 11th century, Vinland consisted of over a dozen villages with a population of roughly 1500 people.

    The Vinlanders continued to grow also in the second half of the eleventh century, outnumbering and confining the last bands of the Beothuk hunter-gatherers to the interior of the island of Newfoundland; and by the year 1100 AD the population of Vinland reaches five thousand. Vinlanders became engaged in trade with Europe, exporting a great supply of fish, which were found in the Great Banks just off the southeastern tip of Vinland.

    Similarly to Iceland, Vinland also hosted quite a significant proportion of people of Irish and Scottish descent. Most of them were servants, taken into captivity during Norse raids on the British Isles or their descendants; yet a small group of Irish freedmen, along with the Papar (6) have escaped to Anticosti Island (7)
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    Languages of the North Atlantic

    Vinlanders also established trading posts along the coast of Markland (3), with the Miqmaq (4), but also in the Kahanwakye (5) valley. It is possible, that the Norse had reached further south, perhaps Cape Cod or even Chesepeake Bay.

    The Norse colony in Greenland continued to prosper, selling also walrus tusks and ivory to Europe. Similarly to Vinland and Iceland, Greenland was also a commonwealth, however being also a dependency of Norway. Apparently, the Norse found no native Inuit in that part of Greenland

    The Commonwealth of Iceland is a unique example of parliamentary rule on this small island, where the chieftains gathered annually at Thingvellir, and they themselves ruled over their clans. However, law enforcement was private, leading to vendetta-like endemic warfare on the island.
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    Forms of government. Notice the pricne-bishoprics in Germany

    In Scandinavia, the unified kingdom of Norway has experienced a civil war in the first half of the 11th century due to the acceptance of Christianity, provoking a pagan reaction. Although king Olav was killed, he was proclaimed a saint , and Chrisitianty became the official religion of Norway. The seat of the bishop was at Nidaros (8). At this time, Norway extended as far south as Gothenburg and as far north as the Lofoten islands; to the east it included Jamtland.

    The kingdom of Gaetia (9) occupying the lake and forest-rich region of eastern Scandinavia had taken over the regions of Uppsala, the core area of Svealand. While a large part of the country by now had become Christians, the region of Smaland in the southeastern parts of Gaetland
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    Yes, there are a few Norse pagans left
    As for Denmark, the reign of Canute saw the incorporation of Norway and England under the Danish fold. However, after his death, the two realms would reaffirm their own independence. Denmark would then again shift its attention eastwards, seeking to expand their power into the Baltic Sea…

    Further south, we can observe the former stem duchies of Saxony and Frisia, which have broken free from the German crown. The Frisians themselves are run in a peculiar peasant republic-style of government, never actually accepting feudalism.
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    A political map, depicting among others, also an independent Saxony
    The Saxons, which could have only been subjugated by such a genius like Charlemagne have reaffirmed their independence (10). The Saxons would have formed a rather centralized monarchy (compared to those times. After all, all of Europe was fragmented), divided into three duchies, namely Westphalia, Angria and Eastphalia. These were futher divided into counties.

    Important cities included Hamburg and Bremes, which were grant royal liberties and have become important centres of trade

    The weakening of German power in the north, and Saxon wars against the Germans meant that Mecklenburg (the realm of the Adobrites) and Lusatia could have broken free and developed their statehood (11). The Dukes of these West Slavic Duchies are smart enough to adopt Christianity, as did the Poles and the Czechs.

    The Duchy of Bohemia, protected by the Bohemian Forest separating it from Bavaria, has also a rather complex relationship with Germany. After all, they swore allegiance to the Germans seeking to shake off Moravian overlordship.

    The remaining areas of the kingdom of Germany included the stem duchies of Swabia, Bavaria, Thuringia and Franconia, plus the Duchies of Upper and Lower Lotharingia. Furthermore, between the Danube and the Alps were the Eastern, Carinthian and Carniolan marches, and the March of Verona located to the south of the Alps.

    The Church and State had already been on close terms since the times of Charlemagne. The emperors had sought the support of the clergy and had granted them large estates, in order to counterbalance the power of the nobility. However, as time went on, the relations between the German kings and the Pope began to tighten, as the Kings sought to usurp the right to nominate the next bishops. This has become known as the Investiture crisis.

    Using modern terms, it was a struggle between the power of the clergy and the power of the king. The result was the victory of the Pope, and the king had to take a humiliating Walk To Canossa (12).

    Remarks:

    The Drang Nach Osten, or the German eastern colonization for now becomes a rather non-event; due to German infighting, the Sorbs and the Adobrites reaffirm their independence and block any further Germanic expansion that way. Furthermore, the powerful Dukes of Bavaria may raise up in revolt anytime. The notion of unity of all Continental Germans is a rather absurd idea. Perhaps instead of Kleinstaaterei we might have a strong Saxony, a strong Bavaria and who knows what shall happen with the rest of the country.

    With Saxon independence, Low Saxon language is going to be even further apart from High German.

    (1) Generally, Vinland is understood as Newfoundland. I am not going to contradict this model

    (2) L´Anse aux Meadows

    (3) Labrador

    (4) In Nova Scotia and New Brunswick

    (5) St. Lawrence River

    (6) Irish hermits

    (7) Perhaps a parallel to the Vestmanneyrar islands off the coast of Iceland.

    (8) Trondheim

    (9) Sweden. WI The Gaets won over the Swedes?

    (10) Because why not? Without imperial dignity and authority, the Saxons may, after all, break free.

    (11)Lusatia would include most of Saxony east of the Elbe, as well as a major part of Brandenburg.

    (12)In this timeline, the investiture dispute ends in far larger victory for the Pope than IOTL, mainly due to the German monarch not bearing the title Emperor and having a smaller power anyhow.
     
  9. WotanArgead God of Impalers

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    And why are they preserved in the lands of the Getae and not Svear?

    In this case, there must be constant wars inside Germany - for the main reason (relocation, and the limited possibility of transferring the feud) remain. In addition, it is worth considering that the Saxons still have the opportunity to begin the colonization of the eastern lands and the Polish king Boleslav the Brave in 1002-1018 tried to seize the lands of the notorious Slavic Slavs, taking them from the German feudal lords and subjugating the local tribes that they still retained independence.

    As I understand it, after climate change, these settlements will begin to die out.
     
  10. Goldensilver81 Well-Known Member

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    nice , good as always , man i have lot of cathing up to your in the 11th century , while iam bearly in 690
     
  11. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    @WotanArgead : according to en.wikipedia: Christianisation of Scandinavia, those parts continued to be pagan until 12th century. No major reason why would the butterflies reach there... Or perhaps yes. But well.
    Drang Nach Osten:
    Not saying that it won't happen, but rather it has not begun for now. But yes. Just realized all of Prussia was non-German at this time.

    Vinland: should Vinland get started seriously, they can house the refugees from Norway, or relocate further south ... Anyhow by 1200 we could have a population between 70 000 to 125 000, without migration or assimilation. By the year 1300 if all goes well the Vinland era may number 465 000, and control large parts of Canada and New England .
     
  12. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    So here we are. All the world is finished. Prepare yourselves for upcoming global maps :)
     
  13. Threadmarks: Overview I: Political Map of the World in 1100AD

    Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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  14. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-11-3_18-17-36.png
    1. Tribal: Brown - spread in western Africa, Siberia, Baltics, partly Caucasus, Manipur , Gondwana, etc.
    2. Nomadic: golden - mainly steppes, also Sahara and Arabia
    3. Despotic: purple -Kanem, Yunnan, Jagudid Empire
    4. Feudal: blue
    5. Caste: pink-purple, in India
    6. Mandala: orange, SE Asia
    7. Bureaucratic: green: China
    8. Plutocracy: beige-orange (monarchical,trae-based city states)
    9. Republic: pink
    10. Hierocracy: beige (Egypt and surroundings)
    11. Monastic Feudal (salmon, Tibet)
    12. Theocracy (white)
    13. Imperial: purple, Rhomania
     
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  15. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-11-3_18-27-17.png
     
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  16. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-11-3_18-28-25.png
     
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  17. Goldensilver81 Well-Known Member

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    Great maps mate .
    It's fun to compare how things went in your timeline
     
  18. Blacklister3000 Libertarian of sorts

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    Spin-off: The destinies of the Americas and Oceania in this timeline have not yet been written.
     
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  19. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    I really enjoy the world you have created!
     
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  20. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much. The twelfth century will begin quite soon. The world is large. Again I shall be asking for helping hands in this project
     
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