Cold War NATO navies.

Let's put this in perspective. These assets were expected to be used in the context of WW3 breaking out, with only a few short weeks (at most) to resolve things before a general nuclear exchange. Against that, losing a regiment of Backfires to kill a US CBG is actually a pretty good swap. Same for the SSGNs, if you lose one but it puts a couple of missiles into a carrier, then it was worth the effort.

Another point: what fighters? The only fighters likely able to interecept a raid are those from a carrier (or Iceland, but I'd be surprised if the Soviets didn't have a plan for that (possibly a 600 kilotonne plan)). The Soviets thought they could deal with the fighters well enough to get their strike launched - they may have been wrong, but they thought they could do it. Even if it boils down to swamping the fighters and air defenses with incoming missiles, for most of the Cold War the NATO navies would have had a miserable time against a multiple-regiment attack. There just weren't enough SAMs, and the SAMs weren't capable enough, to stop everything. The USN had the best chance, but up until 1983 or so even they would probably have had a bad day.
Which timeframe are we talking about ?
Before 1983 there are not that many backfires ( half of those with strategic aviation) the mainstay is the elderly Badger.
Can the strategic aviation backfires carry anti ship KH-22 ? I’m not sure maybe other members can comment
And Oscar’s are barely getting operational, the main SSGN fleet is P500 armed Echo II and the Juliet which are essentially mobile coastal defense missile batteries
 
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IMHO the Soviet Navy was Dean Man (their preferred pronoun) Walking after 1955. The modern SSN owns the ocean. The 594, 637, and 688 class were much better then their opponents. The ship handling and crew training/performance of USN/UK boats was superior to the Soviets. Their boats were noisy and not operated very well. Oscars would have been a bit of a challenge. They were fairly quiet and fairly fast. Operating under ice against Typhoons and Alphas was a challenge due to the background noise. Alphas were noisy as crap though.

The Soviets could have tried to get into the Atlantic with their boats. Problem was that they had one port. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a bunch of old CW era CAPTOR mines on the bottom around Murmansk. Then they had to get into the Atlantic. SOSUS is tough for a US boat to get across without being detected. Soviets didn’t make it.

The only thing that would have slowed NATO SSNs Vs Soviet Surface ships would have been running out of torpedoes. Soviet Surface ship ASW was an oxymoron (most surface ship ASW is an oxymoron). Subs have virtually all of the advantages. Stealth, weapons range, convergence zones, thermoclines, speed, endurance, better crews, better training, picking when and how to engage, etc.

Obviously NATO would have lost ships and boats. The vagaries of combat would have seen to that. My humble experience is that it would have been a slaughter though.
Why do you think soviets opted for largeASW ships and a plethora of smaller coastal ASW ships ?
The utility of former in open seas is understandable but the latter probably stood no chance against any SSN , and they probably would never have encountered the NATO SS/SSK in soviet coastal waters ( I’m assuming because of the range limitations)
 
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Riain

Banned
Most of NATO can't afford the kind of strike forces that are credible against the kind of antiship firepower the Soviets were throwing around. A CVL like what the Netherlands and Canada were using, stuck with subsonic fighters and protected only by local SAMs, are meat to the slaughter against Badgers, let alone the Backfires.

Aside from the US only the Brits and French can afford that kind of capability, and the French only barely and not without a lot more investment into larger carriers and more capable aircraft.

Not alone, but in a NATO context operating in a Task Force with USN or more importantly RN or MN big carriers a light carrier with a sqn of Skyhawks and Trackers would be a handy addition.

IIRC in the 60s Britain called a Tactical Air Unit 2 snqs of of Fighters and 2 sqns of Buccaneers which required 2 carriers, but with CVA01 a TAU could be formed with it and a light carrier with a single sqn of light fighter-bombers.
 
Which timeframe are we talking about ?
Before 1983 there are not that many backfires ( half of those with strategic aviation) the mainstay is the elderly Badger.
Can the strategic aviation backfires carry anti ship KH-22 ? I’m not sure maybe other members can comment
And Oscar’s are barely getting operational, the main SSGN fleet is P500 armed Echo II and the Juliet which are essentially mobile coastal defense missile batteries
Well, you're the one who mentioned Backfires to start with. But it almost doesn't matter, the Badgers were plenty good enough against any except the top-tier NATO navies. Even against the USN, in 1970 (just as an example) fleet air-defence Phantoms would struggle to bring down enough Badgers to make the incoming missiles manageable by the other air defences. Those big Soviet anti-ship missiles had a good range, and came in very fast, and had big warheads. It only takes one or two slipping through to make the whole effort worthwhile, and you don't have long to get them all.
 
Not alone, but in a NATO context operating in a Task Force with USN or more importantly RN or MN big carriers a light carrier with a sqn of Skyhawks and Trackers would be a handy addition.

IIRC in the 60s Britain called a Tactical Air Unit 2 snqs of of Fighters and 2 sqns of Buccaneers which required 2 carriers, but with CVA01 a TAU could be formed with it and a light carrier with a single sqn of light fighter-bombers.
A squadron of Skyhawks is functionally useless from the perspective of going after Soviet naval and land targets. Too short-ranged, too limited in what it can carry and launch.

Corsairs and Sea Harriers are better, though Sea Harriers still suffer from crippling range limitations.
 
A squadron of Skyhawks is functionally useless from the perspective of going after Soviet naval and land targets. Too short-ranged, too limited in what it can carry and launch.

Corsairs and Sea Harriers are better, though Sea Harriers still suffer from crippling range limitations.
Can a Corsair fly off something the size of the Majestics? Doubtful at least.
 
A squadron of Skyhawks is functionally useless from the perspective of going after Soviet naval and land targets. Too short-ranged, too limited in what it can carry and launch.

Corsairs and Sea Harriers are better, though Sea Harriers still suffer from crippling range limitations.
The Skyhawks - or Sea Harriers, for that matter - aren't onboard to do strike missions. They're there to frighten away Soviet maritime recon aircraft, or force strikes to be escorted if they're transiting the area the light carriers are in.
 

Riain

Banned
A squadron of Skyhawks is functionally useless from the perspective of going after Soviet naval and land targets. Too short-ranged, too limited in what it can carry and launch.

Corsairs and Sea Harriers are better, though Sea Harriers still suffer from crippling range limitations.

Yes, but in a Task Force with maybe OTL Ark Royal or ATL Eagle or CVA01 and their Phantoms and Buccaneers the Skyhawks can undertake secondary tasks that would otherwise have to be done by the Ark's more powerful aircraft which could instead be tasked with the harder, longer-ranged missions.
 
Well, you're the one who mentioned Backfires to start with. But it almost doesn't matter, the Badgers were plenty good enough against any except the top-tier NATO navies. Even against the USN, in 1970 (just as an example) fleet air-defence Phantoms would struggle to bring down enough Badgers to make the incoming missiles manageable by the other air defences. Those big Soviet anti-ship missiles had a good range, and came in very fast, and had big warheads. It only takes one or two slipping through to make the whole effort worthwhile, and you don't have long to get them all.
Do you see this situation changing by 1980 in NATOs favor ?
 
that has come up in a couple of recent threads is that during the Cold War the Soviets didn't intend to interdict Atlantic Convoys, despite it being likely that all sorts of stuff would be being rushed to Western Europe.
That's a misconception borne from confusing the fact that the Soviets HIGHEST priority was to defend the bastion areas with that as being the Soviets ONLY priority. But these are not the same thing. Now, it DOES mean they would only do them if doing so did not compromise their ability to accomplish more important missions. For the VMF, interdicting NATO traffic would probably be fourth in the priority list, with third being "provide relevant support for the ground forces in the Baltics/Black Sea and around Scandinavia", second being "coastal defense against NATO naval incursions against the motherland generally", and first being "coastal defense against NATO naval incursions against the SSBN bastion areas specifically".

Was there a role for yankee and hotels as boomers by late 70s when deltas arrive in significant numbers?
Just sticking to the bastion areas, they could serve as theatre strike assets against targets in Europe and Asia. Even beyond that, though the Americans were USUALLY able to find the Yankees in their patrol boxes near Bermuda and off the West Coast, they were not ALWAYS able to do so. A skilled Soviet skipper or run of bad luck occasionally could and did give the USN the slip, something which always caused no end of fretting for the USN but which probably in the end enhanced the deterrence value of the Soviet boomer fleet.
 
The Skyhawks - or Sea Harriers, for that matter - aren't onboard to do strike missions. They're there to frighten away Soviet maritime recon aircraft, or force strikes to be escorted if they're transiting the area the light carriers are in.
Remember F-5s initial roots and have a naval variant. This can fly off the light carriers, it was designed for them in the first place. And if you are Canadian or Dutch also offers economies of scale since you are already using the plane with the air force.
 

Riain

Banned
That's a misconception borne from confusing the fact that the Soviets HIGHEST priority was to defend the bastion areas with that as being the Soviets ONLY priority. But these are not the same thing. Now, it DOES mean they would only do them if doing so did not compromise their ability to accomplish more important missions. For the VMF, interdicting NATO traffic would probably be fourth in the priority list, with third being "provide relevant support for the ground forces in the Baltics/Black Sea and around Scandinavia", second being "coastal defense against NATO naval incursions against the motherland generally", and first being "coastal defense against NATO naval incursions against the SSBN bastion areas specifically

I'd suggest that the Soviets had the resources to do all 4 of those things.

If that's the case then NATO wasn't way off base with the navies they had.
 
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I'd suggest that the Soviets had the resources to do all 4 of those things.

If that's the case then NATO wasn't way off base with the navies they had.
Considering the number of gatekeeper and bodyguard missions they had for attack submarines and the fact that the vast majority of cruise missile submarines were reserved for anti-carrier operations, very few submarines would have been available for offensive operations in the central North Atlantic. In the 1973 Mediterranean crisis, the Soviets were able to mass about a dozen submarines in the Mediterranean Sea, but only by stripping independent deployers from the Atlantic. These are the kinds of numbers NATO would be dealing with in wartime, and their primary mission wouldn't even be convoy interdiction, but rather offensive ASW against US SSNs and SSBNs near their home ports.

During the 1960s and 1970s, the primary focus of the Soviet SSN fleet was bodyguard defense of SSBNs in the central North Atlantic and eastern North Pacific and offensive ASW against Polaris-armed SSBNs that would necessarily be operating within roughly a thousand miles of the Soviet coast. The Soviet SSK fleet would have been heavily oriented towards coastal defense within roughly 500 miles of the Soviet coast, where NATO attack carriers and amphibious groups would have to operate to strike Soviet naval bases.

The switch to bastion defense by the 1980s allowed the SSNs to position themselves to conduct both the SSBN defense and coastal defense roles. Theoretically, this might have released the SSKs capable of long-range deployments to go farther out, but increasing NATO SSN numbers would have required most of them to stay near the bastions to back up the Soviet SSNs.

I'm sure the Soviets would have been very interested in giving the Brits heartburn by sending a few submarines into the Central North Atlantic, but they would have been the least valuable, and therefore oldest and loudest, out of the fleet. The best defense against that was the SOSUS line, backed up by SSNs and MPRAs, because they would already be in place to interdict the Yankees heading south.
 
But how ? During Which time frame ? Soviet navy does not have the numbers even with Air Force assistance
You always say that, but the Soviets aren’t going to be going Mano e Mano with the entire USN at once.

So I’m gonna need more evidence besides “because I think so”.
 
You always say that, but the Soviets aren’t going to be going Mano e Mano with the entire USN at once.

So I’m gonna need more evidence besides “because I think so”.
Open any copy of IISS military balance 1975 onwards and compare the inventories of soviet navy vs NATO ( not counting the USN pacific fleet or even deployments in remote areas ) and you will get your answer

Also soviet fleets have no easy way of reinforcing each other in areas of active conflict except maybe northern and pacific fleets .So it’s even harder for soviets to concentrate their entire fleet for any decisive action just like it’s very difficult for USN given their global commitments

AVMF bombers are an exception they could be possibly concentrated given their range and flexibility

Soviet navy had blue water navy ships but green water navy mentality /capability
 
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Open any copy of IISS military balance 1975 onwards and compare the inventories of soviet navy vs NATO ( not counting the USN pacific fleet or even deployments in remote areas ) and you will get your answer

Also soviet fleets have no easy way of reinforcing each other in areas of active conflict except maybe northern and pacific fleets .So it’s even harder for soviets to concentrate their entire fleet for any decisive action just like it’s very difficult for USN given their global commitments

AVMF bombers are an exception they could be possibly concentrated given their range and flexibility

Soviet navy had blue water navy ships but green water navy mentality /capability
And in 1975 if the USN tries to attack the Soviet coast - the preventing of which is part of two of the four missions outlined - they’re going to eat absolutely horrendous casualties for little gain, as this is before most of the technologies that made USN battle groups such tough nuts to crack in the 1980s. Not to mention is the low ebb of USN strength, morale, and personnel.

Inventory comparisons are about the most shallow means of military analysis available, and the fact that you rely on them explains a lot about the bonkers conclusions you routinely reach.

#3 doesn’t even involve the USN, at best it’ll involve sparring with the Germans.
 
And in 1975 if the USN tries to attack the Soviet coast - the preventing of which is part of two of the four missions outlined - they’re going to eat absolutely horrendous casualties for little gain, as this is before most of the technologies that made USN battle groups such tough nuts to crack in the 1980s. Not to mention is the low ebb of USN strength, morale, and personnel.

Inventory comparisons are about the most shallow means of military analysis available, and the fact that you rely on them explains a lot about the bonkers conclusions you routinely reach.

#3 doesn’t even involve the USN, at best it’ll involve sparring with the Germans.
If USN tries to attack the soviet coast then they are playing to the strength of the latter
What makes you think they will do that ?

Inventory is a start to comparing strengths and that was my main argument if soviets don’t even have the numbers which is widely touted as the main reason for their superiority over NATO then what is the basis of your other assumptions about their capabilities?
 
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If USN tries to attack the soviet coast then they are playing to the strength of the latter
What makes you think they will do that ?
Because, again, this is in context of the Soviets achieving four goals, two of which are defense of their coasts and defense of bastion areas.

Unable to create a symmetrical aircraft carrier fleet, for both economic and
political reasons, the soviet Navy had to create some system that could at least
deter the U.s. Navy carrier task forces from conducting strikes against the naval,
military, and civilian infrastructure and installations on the Kola and Kamchatka
Peninsulas, sakhalin Island, and the shoreline around the city of vladivostok.

And 1982's Northern Wedding exercise seemed to confirm all the Soviet fears in that regard. Bluntly, what I think doesn't matter in this context; what matters is what the Soviets think and, well, see the article I linked.

Inventory is a start to comparing strengths and that was my main argument if soviets don’t even have the numbers which is widely touted as the main reason for their superiority over NATO then what is the basis of your other assumptions about their capabilities?
The fact that the US spent the better part of 20 years getting both the Tomcat and AEGIS working in direct response to the Soviet antiship missile threat? The fact that the parlous state of the entire US military immediately post-Vietnam is very widely documented?

Look, the point is, Riain was saying the following four missions were achievable for the Soviets:

That's a misconception borne from confusing the fact that the Soviets HIGHEST priority was to defend the bastion areas with that as being the Soviets ONLY priority. But these are not the same thing. Now, it DOES mean they would only do them if doing so did not compromise their ability to accomplish more important missions. For the VMF, interdicting NATO traffic would probably be fourth in the priority list, with third being "provide relevant support for the ground forces in the Baltics/Black Sea and around Scandinavia", second being "coastal defense against NATO naval incursions against the motherland generally", and first being "coastal defense against NATO naval incursions against the SSBN bastion areas specifically".
I'd quibble with priority four given how much resources priorities one and two required, but nonetheless all of these goals were achievable, albeit while having to borrow Backfire divisions from the Air Force. Yes, the Soviet Navy was smaller. But context is king in these sorts of comparisons and the Soviets always intended to play to their strengths rather than the USN's.
 
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