Cold SLUF, or: WI (R)CAF got A-7s instead?

Probably depends on how committed you are to something that has afterburners and can go supersonic, even if only for a limited period of time.
I also wonder about operating costs and how relevant the heritage of the F5 being based on the T38 trainer was.

Edit to add.. As much as I like to envision the Canadians having a fleet of A7's during the Cold War I wonder what the impacts of not having the CF5 trainer and Recce air craft might have been ?

I'm thinking not having the CF5 trainer fleet could have had some interesting ripple effects.
 
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Any thoughts about the viability of the A7 for this role ?

Firstly I don't think that the F5s were bought by RCAF as LIFs, they were bought as operational aircraft to back up the F101 and F104 fleets. It became a LIF late in its service life.

Secondly I don't think the A7A would be a good LIF as its a full sized attack aircraft not a small fighter bomber. At the very least withdrawing the A7A fleet to do LIF training would leave a massive hole in the RCAF attack capabilities.
 

Archibald

Banned
Essentially ninja'd by Riain.

It's complicated to answer, because both AT-38 and CF-5 were half-trainers, half-combat aircrafts. The usual trainer (Hawk) is subsonic, cheap, and not combat worthy - to save money. Using CF-5D as lead in trainer was mostly opportunistic - because the aircraft was already in service, and in storage, and in the frontline as a single combat aircraft. Still it must have been expensive.
The Jaguar is an example. It was to be a supersonic trainer, but the two-seat Jaguars were too expensive as trainers, and the Alphajet and Hawk were build to replace it.
The bottom line is, using a two-seat combat aircraft as trainer is quite expensive. Those CF-5D were a red herring.

I thought Canada had RF-104s ?
 
Essentially ninja'd by Riain.

It's complicated to answer, because both AT-38 and CF-5 were half-trainers, half-combat aircrafts. The usual trainer (Hawk) is subsonic, cheap, and not combat worthy - to save money. Using CF-5D as lead in trainer was mostly opportunistic - because the aircraft was already in service, and in storage, and in the frontline as a single combat aircraft. Still it must have been expensive.
The Jaguar is an example. It was to be a supersonic trainer, but the two-seat Jaguars were too expensive as trainers, and the Alphajet and Hawk were build to replace it.
The bottom line is, using a two-seat combat aircraft as trainer is quite expensive. Those CF-5D were a red herring.

I thought Canada had RF-104s ?
The thing is I seem to recall reading that the Canadians sold some single seat CF5's (in the 70's to Venezula ?) and used the proceeds to buy more 2 seaters to use as trainers. So I'm thinking that while the actual potential combat role for the CF5's was quite small (two small squadrons were earmarked for the northern flank IIRC) the non combat / training role may in practice have been quite significant for the Canadians. All that being said I'm thinking not having the CF5D may have had some ripple effects.

I don't think the Recce role for the CF5 was that significant but I do recall seeing news footage of them being used operationally (at time when I believe the CF104 was no longer in Canadian service.) Again IMHO some possible ripple effects if the Canadians don't buy the CF5.
 
What is the requirement for A-7s for Canada? Are they needed for ground attack (most likely as NATO reinforcements) or air defense? Don't see much of a role for air defense.
AiUI, it'd be for both, but (allowing the "no nukes" rule persists) mainly GA.

And at the time of purchase, there would be a serious issue over performance: Hellyer was limiting to C$215 mil:eek::eek: (That appears to be, at least in part, aimed at forcing the choice of F-5s, tho.)

If the CF-5s can't be used as trainers, what about (later) purchase of T-38s or Gnats? (Tho using the CT-114 would seem to have done the trick for transition to F-104s...)

And I'm figuring the F-104 fleet would be replaced entire, including any RF-104s...but maybe not immediately...
 
Firstly I don't think that the F5s were bought by RCAF as LIFs, they were bought as operational aircraft to back up the F101 and F104 fleets. It became a LIF late in its service life.

Secondly I don't think the A7A would be a good LIF as its a full sized attack aircraft not a small fighter bomber. At the very least withdrawing the A7A fleet to do LIF training would leave a massive hole in the RCAF attack capabilities.
Bu
AiUI, it'd be for both, but (allowing the "no nukes" rule persists) mainly GA.

And at the time of purchase, there would be a serious issue over performance: Hellyer was limiting to C$215 mil:eek::eek: (That appears to be, at least in part, aimed at forcing the choice of F-5s, tho.)

If the CF-5s can't be used as trainers, what about (later) purchase of T-38s or Gnats? (Tho using the CT-114 would seem to have done the trick for transition to F-104s...)

And I'm figuring the F-104 fleet would be replaced entire, including any RF-104s...but maybe not immediately...

Possibly but the other alternative is that the Canadians don't have enough money left to buy and operate another aircraft type to serve as an advanced trainer / lead in fighter..


So maybe we see more use / attrition in the CF104, CF101, A7 fleets followed by more attrition in the CF18 fleet ? Perhaps we also see more fatalities and less pilot skills as well ?

Lots one can speculate about...
 
AiUI, it'd be for both, but (allowing the "no nukes" rule persists) mainly GA.

And at the time of purchase, there would be a serious issue over performance: Hellyer was limiting to C$215 mil:eek::eek: (That appears to be, at least in part, aimed at forcing the choice of F-5s, tho.)

If the CF-5s can't be used as trainers, what about (later) purchase of T-38s or Gnats? (Tho using the CT-114 would seem to have done the trick for transition to F-104s...)

And I'm figuring the F-104 fleet would be replaced entire, including any RF-104s...but maybe not immediately...
Yeah... An earlier phase out of the CF104 and using A7's in Europe (instead of the CF104) would seem logical.

I suspect the Recce role could simply have been dropped.

I still think another trainer may have been needed :)

Perhaps the Canadians can also acquire later model A7's at some point.
 
Were Canadian two seat F-5s used for recce converted to the RF-5 standard? That is a two seat F-5 with one of the guns removed and cameras put in its place?
 
Did Canada buy F-104s as part of that whole Lockheed corruption/back room deals nonsense that saw the Germans and the Japanese buying them? Of course one the Japanese officials involved in that was some guy named Genda.
 
Canada made Starfighters in Cartierville and J-79s in Ontario as an economic and industrial package with political benefits, similar but different from bribery. Fushida appeared as a Christian evangelist on Front Page Challenge in 1967.
 
Yeah... An earlier phase out of the CF104 and using A7's in Europe (instead of the CF104) would seem logical.

I suspect the Recce role could simply have been dropped.

I still think another trainer may have been needed :)

Perhaps the Canadians can also acquire later model A7's at some point.
Given attrition, I'd expect some more to be bought along the way, but, knowing how cheap Ottawa can be,:rolleyes: maybe it doesn't happen.

Buying a handful of Gnats would be fun.:cool: (Just enough to equip the Snowbirds?:openedeyewink: And really piss off the Red Arrows.:openedeyewink:)
 
There is a company called CAE, Canadian Aviation Electronics, which started in 1947, and built a CF-100 flight simulator, and went on to build an advanced CF-104 simulator, and many more. It now is prime contractor in the NATO Flight Training in Canada program, operating Harvard II and Hawk aircraft, and others. While the Gnats were nice, I believe the Hawk was purposely built to be so much better, and succeeded.
That said, the Tutor was a pretty good trainer, and still puts on a pretty good show. The Snowbirds still fly to shows without support aircraft.
 

Archibald

Banned
Did Canada buy F-104s as part of that whole Lockheed corruption/back room deals nonsense that saw the Germans and the Japanese buying them? Of course one the Japanese officials involved in that was some guy named Genda.

Canada F-104 buyout was different, out of Lockheed bribery scandals.
 
Given attrition, I'd expect some more to be bought along the way, but, knowing how cheap Ottawa can be,:rolleyes: maybe it doesn't happen.

Buying a handful of Gnats would be fun.:cool: (Just enough to equip the Snowbirds?:openedeyewink: And really piss off the Red Arrows.:openedeyewink:)
I'm a bit dubious about the Canadians buying additional attrition replacements in that era, but maybe a upgrade to A7D / A7E standards might happen (especially if the aircraft replace the CF104's in Europe.)

I'm also dubious about the Canadians buying a unique aircraft for the snow birds, but to recap if they don't buy the CF5 I can see an additional trainer possibly being acquired.

Maybe if they phase out the CF104's earlier they could swap them for trainers or perhaps even for two seat F5's. The F5F variant with radar might have been somewhat more useful as an emergency interceptor than the historical CF5's would have been ?
 
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but maybe a upgrade to A7D / A7E standards might happen

The reason I asked when the A7 would be purchased is because the timing dictates what engine it will have. The A7A & B used the non afterburning TF30, as used by the F111, and was the standard production model up to 1970. The A7A had 11,350lbs of thrust, the A7B had 12,200lbs and some A7B were upgraded to have 13,400lbs.

Perhaps if Canada got the A7A or B it could jump on board with the Portuguese A7 purchase, where late model 13,400lbs TF30s and A7E avionics were fitted to ex USN A7As. This could be a cost-effect upgrade without the expense and effort to change from TF30 to Spey/TF41.

As a side note re/up-engine jobs are something no air force takes lightly, even the B52 is running around with 1962 era TF33s. In the mid 90s after the USAF had retired its F111D fleet the RAAF stripped out their more powerful engines to replace the 2 less powerful types used in the F111C & G. To do this job the RAAF had to get the engines dirt cheap second hand and justify the cost against cheaper maintenance due to parts harmonisation etc etc etc, lower fuel costs, the extra power for operational reasons was merely a bonus.
 
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I'm also dubious about the Canadians buying a unique aircraft for the snow birds, but to recap if they don't buy the CF5 I can see an additional trainer possibly being acquired.
No, I'm not really serious about a Snowbird-specific type. I'm just not convinced CAF would buy a new trainer at all. It it happens, I can't imagine it would be an F-5. T-38, maybe.
 
Canada made Starfighters in Cartierville and J-79s in Ontario as an economic and industrial package with political benefits, similar but different from bribery. .......
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Best answer to date.
Canadair built a variety of airplanes (Cosmopolitan transports, Yukon transports, Argus ASW, CT133 Silver Star trainers, Tutor trainers, F86 Sabres, CF104 Starfighters, CF5 Freedom fighters, etc.) for the RCAF to buy votes in a province that was contemplating separating from the rest of Canada. It was probably more expensive to make small batches, but the advantage was that the money stayed within Canada.

Hellyer forced unification and CF5 on the RCAF. The RCAF never really wanted CF5s and they struggled - for decades - to find a role for these diminutive fighters. The biggest problem was limited payload that limited the amount of bombs or fuel that could be carried. One pundit described the CF5 as only being able carry enough fuel to bomb the end of its own runway!
In that respect, a dedicated attack airplane (e.g. A7) would have been a far superior ground attack airplane.

In the end, the CAF relegated CF5 to fighter-trainer duties to reduce wear-and-tear on first-line fighters: CF100 Canucks, CF101 Voodoos, CF104 Starfighters and CF18 Hornets.

I always believed that hanging nuclear bombs on CF104 was the result of struggling to find a role for an airplane that had too little range to defend Canada's 4 coastlines.

CF5s may have been a flop in (R)CAF service, but they succeeded in achieving a larger political goal.
In the end, DND bought enough manufactured goods from Canadair, Bombardier, Bell Helicopters (Mirabel) and Levis Shipyards to convince well-paid Québécois to vote against separation.
 
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