Cochrane and the Emperor

It's been rumoured that Thomas Cochrane, British nobleman and naval captain, as well as commander of the Chilean and Brazilian revolutionary navies had a plan to storm St. Helena, free Napoleon and take him back to South America to forge a new liberal Empire. Cochrane's plan, if it existed, was foiled by the Emperor's death. What happens if Napoleon doesn't contract stomach cancer/isn't poisoned/isn't prescribed an overdose of drugs and does not die in 1821.

Cochrane makes a lightning raid on St. Helena in late 1821 and liberating Napoleon, disappears into the mists of the South Atlantic. In January 1822, Napoleon is reported as being seen at the head of Brazilian revolutionary armies, driving Royalist forces Northwards.

What happens now? Do the combined armies of the Old World descend upon South America? Does every bored and/or unemployed adventurer in the world sail for Brazil to follow the eagles to victory?
 
very interesting idea. i suppose the brits wouldn't be too happy about that at all. they might very well send forces into brazil.

however, this would surely enrage the americans (monroe doctrine had just come about in the wake of the new latin american nations being born in this period). it could also very easily scare the living crap out of them.

some french might come over to brazil to join the emperor. meanwhile, the french government might invade.

sounds like a cluster fuck to me
 

Cook

Banned
Meanwhile, the french government might invade.

Louis XVIII’s France invades who, Brazil? I think they’d be keen to have as little involvement as possible, lest he turn their armies against them (again).

Monroe can come out with colourful rhetoric, but in 1812 that was all his doctrine amounted to, the United States was not going to challenge the Royal Navy.

My guess in the British would put a bounty on Napoleon’s head, the Royal Navy would blockade ports controlled by Napoleon and they would provide arms and money to his opponents, as well as a small army to combine with any large local force.
 
This has the possibility to be an awesome what-if. The only people I could see going after him are the British, but I don't think it's a 100% guarantee they'd take action due to worry about threatening financial interests in both North and South America. North if the USA decides to make an issue of the violation of the Monroe Doctrine, and South if the various new Hispanic nations don't take kindly to being invaded.

Do we have any idea where Napoleon would go, anyway?
 
I have to agree with the earlier comment. The likely response is a joint Anglo-French invasion of Brazil - and not to mention the Portuguese would surely join in, declaring Brazil to be their sphere of influence (assuming it is already independent by this point). If they can't find anywhere they can safely take Napoleon to where he won't be released again or become a popular inspiration for revolutionary zeal, it's possible that the French would demand that he be executed upon capture. It would, after all, be his third time round, and that makes him something of a repeat offender. Cochrane too would certainly be executed - for collusion and treason, presumably. I guess it's technically possible that he might be executed from the yardarm, being technically a RN officer (if holding his commission in abeyance) and having committed an attack upon another vessel of the RN - the island of St Helena I believe was at that point classified as a "stone frigate" and designated the HMS St Helena - or am I just think of Ascension Island?
 
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Honestly, I'm not sure that anybody in Europe would bother doing anything at all. Some revolutionary activity ha taken place in Europe at that time (to put it mildly). IIRC, the Spanish army had just rebelled. France would not take the risk. Britain... i'm not sure. If they are smart, they simply let Nappy bogged down with South American politics of the time, that were not a pleasant thing, and supply anyone opposes him.
After all, Napoleon was wat past his height and would have to fight in a totally unfamiliar context.
In any case, the things could turn out... interesting, especially if a flow of liberals from Europe scramble to rally under the eagle's flag.
 
If I remember correctly, there was actually a movement of sympathy towards Napoleon starting 1818... There were rumors of Napoleon having terrible living conditions thanks to Hudson Lowe.
Besides, Napoleon no longer appeared much as threat in those years. Exiled on a rock, he no longer had any real support in Europe. So I think Napoleon's evasion and South American Adventure wouldn't bother them much.

Not to mention South America is rather far away from Europe : I don't think the British would care much if Napoleon was building himself an Empire there. Unless he starts to be a nuisance to them in that part of the world of course... As for the restored Bourbons, I think it would be some sort of a "good riddance!" feeling :D. Of all the other European countries, I can only see Portugal intervene to help Brazil.

I'm not sure how effective Napoleon would be effective though... He was already in his 50s and we don't know how he would react to the South American climate. Plus, some said Napoleon was only a shadow of himself during the Waterloo Campaign : maybe he had lost some skills. That wouldn't be very surprising if he did in that case, considering he wouldn't have led an army since that damned June 18, 1815.
 

MrP

Banned
I love that lunatic. Unfortunately, I can't help. I gave away as a present the awesome first volume of his autobiography several weeks ago. Tsk.
 
If I remember correctly, there was actually a movement of sympathy towards Napoleon starting 1818... There were rumors of Napoleon having terrible living conditions thanks to Hudson Lowe.
Besides, Napoleon no longer appeared much as threat in those years. Exiled on a rock, he no longer had any real support in Europe. So I think Napoleon's evasion and South American Adventure wouldn't bother them much.

Not to mention South America is rather far away from Europe : I don't think the British would care much if Napoleon was building himself an Empire there. Unless he starts to be a nuisance to them in that part of the world of course... As for the restored Bourbons, I think it would be some sort of a "good riddance!" feeling :D. Of all the other European countries, I can only see Portugal intervene to help Brazil.

I'm not sure how effective Napoleon would be effective though... He was already in his 50s and we don't know how he would react to the South American climate. Plus, some said Napoleon was only a shadow of himself during the Waterloo Campaign : maybe he had lost some skills. That wouldn't be very surprising if he did in that case, considering he wouldn't have led an army since that damned June 18, 1815.

Napoleon was seen as no threat precisely because he was away from anywhere he could cause damage. Just because he was seen as harmless in 1818 doesn't mean "situation permanently averted, Napoleon can never cause us harm again because for a while we felt like he couldn't". And there's no reason why Napoleon couldn't arrange for another fleet to take him back to Europe and attempt to take France yet again, especially if he controls all of Brazil. Sure, he might fail, but it's a threat to Europe, and it's a threat the British swore to be responsible for ensuring never again existed.

As for the British "not caring" if he took over Brazil, remember this was the era when the British were trying to gain a trade monopoly over the new South American countries. Napoleon being in control of one of them - and let's face it, if Europe truly leaves him alone, he'll probably end up trying to or even succeeding in controlling all of them - means that the British are guaranteed to have zero influence over wherever Napoleon has mastery.

As for not being in a fit state to lead an army - I guess that's more over his health than his fitness of mind. If he survives past 1821, which is mentioned in the POD, the suggestion is his health isn't nearly so bad.
 
I'm a bit confused here. Why would Cochrane bring Napoleon to Brazil in 1821/1822 to fight for our independence if Cochrane himself only arrived here in 1823? During that period he was still in Chile, and only left Chilean service in the end of 1822.
Also, in Brazil he was already serving an emperor (Pedro I) and so it would make no sense bring Napoleon here to replace the ruler who was paying him, gave him the command of the Navy and even made him a Marquis.
 
I suppose Napoleon would be rather the chief commander of the army and an advisor of Pedro I than the Emperor. Pedro loved Napoleon and the Brazilian people loved Pedro. Moreover, Brazil had no army at all then (in fact the obligatory military service was dreaded gy the people) and even Napoleon can't raise an army from nothing, especially a Brazilian one. What I do see is more French generals coming to Brazil, getting yet more mercenaries to the Brazilian Army. Pedro I favoured France (as we can see in the Siege of Salvador) and even married a granddaughter of Josephine, Amelia de Beaurnhais (spelling?).

Eventually, we got this scenario: Pedro I is the Emperor of Brazil and Napoleon plays the role of José Bonifácio and could even be the tutor of Pedro's children. Suppose that Napoleon lives until the early 1840's (yeah, I know, almost impossible). This could result having our favorite French heading the Regency Council for Pedro II. He then could go berserk and invade Uruguay with his French officers and European mercenaries. Maybe he could even attempt to put his son, Napoleon II, in the throne. Interesting stuff could happen...
 
I'm a bit confused here. Why would Cochrane bring Napoleon to Brazil in 1821/1822 to fight for our independence if Cochrane himself only arrived here in 1823? During that period he was still in Chile, and only left Chilean service in the end of 1822.
Also, in Brazil he was already serving an emperor (Pedro I) and so it would make no sense bring Napoleon here to replace the ruler who was paying him, gave him the command of the Navy and even made him a Marquis.

Sorry, my mistake- I got my dates confused. It being 1821, Cochrane would most likely bring Napoleon back to Chile.

Cochrane's plan was actually to try to transcend all the local revolutions that were going on against the Iberian powers and to try to establish a United States of South America.
 
Now there's a possibility: having taken Brazil more or less by storm, and having worked his way around the Caribbean coast of South America, Napoleon starts his way up the isthmus of Colombia/Panama, only to be run head-on into...Andrew Jackson and the Yanks, well entrenched at (let's say) what would be the Culebra Cut in OTL.
 
ByzantineCaesar said:
I suppose Napoleon would be rather the chief commander of the army and an advisor of Pedro I than the Emperor. Pedro loved Napoleon and the Brazilian people loved Pedro. Moreover, Brazil had no army at all then (in fact the obligatory military service was dreaded gy the people) and even Napoleon can't raise an army from nothing, especially a Brazilian one. What I do see is more French generals coming to Brazil, getting yet more mercenaries to the Brazilian Army. Pedro I favoured France (as we can see in the Siege of Salvador) and even married a granddaughter of Josephine, Amelia de Beaurnhais (spelling?).

Eventually, we got this scenario: Pedro I is the Emperor of Brazil and Napoleon plays the role of José Bonifácio and could even be the tutor of Pedro's children. Suppose that Napoleon lives until the early 1840's (yeah, I know, almost impossible). This could result having our favorite French heading the Regency Council for Pedro II. He then could go berserk and invade Uruguay with his French officers and European mercenaries. Maybe he could even attempt to put his son, Napoleon II, in the throne. Interesting stuff could happen...

It's Beauharnais. To be more precise, Amelia was a daughter of Eugene de Beauharnais, Josephine's son and thus Napoleon's stepson, and Amelia Augusta of Bavaria.

Not sure Napoleon could install his son on the Brazilian throne, even in your scenario. The King of Rome (Duke of Reichstadt at that point) was with his mother, in Austria or Tuscany. You would have the Austrians to accept the young Napoleon II to go see his father, and I'm not sure they would. Old Francis I of Austria loved his grandson Franz and forbade people to say bad things on Napoleon I when Napoleon II was present, but I'm not sure he would have accepted Napoleon II to leave Austria.
Even far less sure of Meternich being okay with that scenario. And let's not mention Marie Louise...
 
Now there's a possibility: having taken Brazil more or less by storm, and having worked his way around the Caribbean coast of South America, Napoleon starts his way up the isthmus of Colombia/Panama, only to be run head-on into...Andrew Jackson and the Yanks, well entrenched at (let's say) what would be the Culebra Cut in OTL.

Given the terrain involved, I'm not sure this is plausible, even if it is a cool scenario :D
 

Skokie

Banned
Napoleon would be wise to consolidate his power in Mexico, then march on gringolandia. He can snatch up the rest of the Americas as an afterthought.
 
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Sorry, my mistake- I got my dates confused. It being 1821, Cochrane would most likely bring Napoleon back to Chile.

Cochrane's plan was actually to try to transcend all the local revolutions that were going on against the Iberian powers and to try to establish a United States of South America.

And who would want him in Chile? O'Higgins options would be:
A) Hand him back to the british in return for money, weapons, supplies and ships.
B) give him command of the Chilenean army and navy and order napoleon to conquer Peru while obeying orders like a loyal subordinate. Napoleon would be demanded to act as a mere mercenary officer in such scenario
 
Napoleon would be wise to consolidate his power in Mexico, then march on gringolandia. He can snatch up the rest of the Americas as an afterthought.

While I'm sure you're joking, the idea of Napoleon as ruler of the First Mexican Empire is... absolutely, mind-stunningly bitchin'.

Someone with a bigger pair than myself should post an AHC thread on this immediately.

Immediately.
 
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