Clovis turned to Arianism instead of Catholicism

What would have happened if the king that made the Franks the power they were didn't convert from paganism to Catholicism, but choose Arianism instead?

I start here with a rough basic timeline:

January 493 - Gundobad, trying to become the King of Burgundy, kills his brother Chilperic and drowns his wife. Chilperic's daughters, Chroma and Clotilda, get exiled, and instead of being found by the men of Clovis, they are attacked and eaten by hungry wolfs.

August 493 - Clovis marries Aleyd, granddaughter of King Valamir of the Goths, and niece of King Theodoric The Great of the Goths, who is married to his sister. She practises Arianism, and is of great influence to her husband.

496 - Clovis I defeats the Allemanni and after believing that his wife's prayer have won him the battle, converts to Arianism.

500 - Clovis makes arianism the official religion of the Frankish Empire

506 and 507 - Clovis conquers much of Gaul and manages to take control over much of the Visigoth lands. is conquest is halted soon, after King Theodoric of the Ostrogoths gets involved.

At this moment, we have a Frankish Empire which is a bit smaller than it was in OTL at the time, except that it is Arian, not Roman Catholic, and it's allied (albeit with difficulties) to the Ostrogoths.

What do you think of this scenario, and what effect would this have on the fate of Arianism in western Europe, and the growth of the Frankis Empire?
 
IIRC the Franks under Clovis had been allied to the Ostrogoths since 491, two years before your timeline starts.
 
Yes, I know that; however, in this case, they stay allied, without their alliance broken in 506, mainly due to religious sentiment and some marriage issues.
 
would the franks then help their arian brothers being atacked by orthodox bisant in north africa?

probbably the crusades would be downplayed to diplomatic and comertial, maybe limited military conflict

also te pope might see it fit to take ower the defence of the true faith and expand the papal state to most of the apenine penisula

IMO arianism failed mainly becouse it had no "base" to rely on, the chatolicks had rome and the papacy, the orthodox had carigrad and later each their own patriarchy
perhaps a large european empire would automaticaly mean the state religion gets a capital too, and posibly a leading religious authority figure of some sort

how were the arians organised aniway?
 
If the Franks become Arians, this is going to throw some major monkey wrenches into the development of Western Europe. The Orthodox Franks ended up as the protectors and main promoters of the Western Church. The protection that the Franks provided the Western Church allowed the Roman Church to make itself independent of Constantinople.

If you do not have the Franks as Orthodox Christians, but rather as Arians, then the Western Church is in a hostile environment with no Germanic tribes that are going to become allies or protectors of the Church. This is going to mean that in the environment of a post-Justinian invasions of the Lombards and the (Arian) Franks is going to be quite hostile to the Western Church. I think that under these conditions, we could see the Orthodox Christian maintain unity between East and West, and perhaps even see the Byzantine Empire be able to project more power into the West, through the Orthodox civilian population.
 
the byzantine empire also was allies with the western empire most of the time because of the same faith.
 
the byzantine empire also was allies with the western empire most of the time because of the same faith.
Well, yes, but the Western Roman Empire was already conquered at the moment, so tht isn't all that important. I do appreciate the boost of attention.

Now, what would happen to the still Catholic but conquered remains of the Western Roman Empire? One of the main reasons the Franks managed to conquer as much as they did awas because the populace was sympathetical to them, and hated their Gothic overlords. What would happen to them if there were no Catholic saviours? Would they rebel out of themselves agains their heathen oppressors?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Well, yes, but the Western Roman Empire was already conquered at the moment, so tht isn't all that important. I do appreciate the boost of attention.

Now, what would happen to the still Catholic but conquered remains of the Western Roman Empire? One of the main reasons the Franks managed to conquer as much as they did awas because the populace was sympathetical to them, and hated their Gothic overlords. What would happen to them if there were no Catholic saviours? Would they rebel out of themselves agains their heathen oppressors?

Unlikely the Catholic population rarely revolted, and the few times they did it didn't end well for them, you are likely to see the other Germanic kingdoms continue their dominans of the west with a Arian nobility and army, while the peasants, the merchants and the bureucrat will be Catholics. In the Frankish realm you will see a continue spread of their language and religion south with urban centres staying Latin and Catholic, so in Franken the Catholics will in time become a merchant minority like Christians and Jews became in Muslims countries. I think a East Roman destruction of the Ostrogoths become more unlikely with a surviving Burgundian state and a Arian Franken. Likely will Arianismen also spread to the Germanic settlers in Britain so we aint going to see the Spread of "Catholic" Christianity from Ireland to Northen Europe we saw in OTL.
 
Unlikely the Catholic population rarely revolted, and the few times they did it didn't end well for them, you are likely to see the other Germanic kingdoms continue their dominans of the west with a Arian nobility and army, while the peasants, the merchants and the bureucrat will be Catholics. In the Frankish realm you will see a continue spread of their language and religion south with urban centres staying Latin and Catholic, so in Franken the Catholics will in time become a merchant minority like Christians and Jews became in Muslims countries. I think a East Roman destruction of the Ostrogoths become more unlikely with a surviving Burgundian state and a Arian Franken. Likely will Arianismen also spread to the Germanic settlers in Britain so we aint going to see the Spread of "Catholic" Christianity from Ireland to Northen Europe we saw in OTL.
So, in other words, the Byzantine Empire will be the only place where 'Catholic' (or 'Nicaean' or 'Trinitarian') Christianity is the majority religion?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
So, in other words, the Byzantine Empire will be the only place where 'Catholic' (or 'Nicaean' or 'Trinitarian') Christianity is the majority religion?

It's quite likely to stay in majority for centuries and maybe even permanent in Italy, South France and Spain. But it's going to have a few problem which make a permantly majority unlikely, the Arian isn't going to care about interreligious bickering among the Catholics so heretical belief among them is going to thrive. All marriage between Arian and Catholic will mean that the Catholic have to lieve her/his religion. While in Burgundia and Northen Italy I can see Arian settler move in from the north (Allemanians and Langobards).

Beside that Othodoxs would be the best term for both westen and easten "Catholic" Christianity
 
Celtic Rite Christianity will still be strong in the British Isles, and this is where the engine of the conversion of north west Europe was located OTL, and I don't this will change. This was, in most respects, a Nicean church, so we will likely still see a Nicean north west Europe..
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Celtic Rite Christianity will still be strong in the British Isles, and this is where the engine of the conversion of north west Europe was located OTL, and I don't this will change. This was, in most respects, a Nicean church, so we will likely still see a Nicean north west Europe..

I doubt the Saxon and Angle is going to convert to the Celtic church without a Catholic Franken on the contignent, there're little reason to do it in this case, and without whose two groups it isn't going to spread to the contignent.
 
I doubt the Saxon and Angle is going to convert to the Celtic church without a Catholic Franken on the contignent, there're little reason to do it in this case, and without whose two groups it isn't going to spread to the contignent.

Irish monks did make converts on the Continent, in the Germanic lands.

Perhaps they're less successful at it with an Arian Frankish Empire nearby.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Irish monks did make converts on the Continent, in the Germanic lands.

Perhaps they're less successful at it with an Arian Frankish Empire nearby.

Yes but they converted the Germanic tribes in Britain first, and most of their converting was in the Frankish Empire under the protection of the Frankish crown, and I doubt they would be welcomed in an Arian Frankish Empire trying to convert Arians.
 
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Yes but they converted the Germanic tribes in Britain first, and most of their converting was in the Frankish Empire under the protection of the Frankish crown, and I doubt they would welcome in an Arian Frankish Empire trying to convert Arians.

I don't know if an Arian Frankish Empire would be anything like as successful as a Catholic one - several of the important advisers to the Frankish were British Catholics.
 
I don't know if an Arian Frankish Empire would be anything like as successful as a Catholic one - several of the important advisers to the Frankish were British Catholics.
Not in the late 5th century, I think. The 'British' were all fighting eachother back then. (Anglo-saxons versus Romanobritish)
 
Theodoric

Just came across this. My gut feeling is that the result will be a weaker Christian church in the west. Given that the bulk of the population continues to be Catholic all the states in the region will be internally divided. However I suspect sooner or later one of the Germanic states will probably see a faction convert to Catholicism. If it can get away with that and seize power it could probably become the dominant power that the Franks were in OTL. AS it will gain the support of the bulk of the population and significant elements such as the bureaucracy. I think there was a growing element of the Visigoths in Spain converting shortly before they were overrun by the Moors. This might have occurred earlier if Cat holism wasn't identified with their Frankish rivals. As such suspect some faction in a state will try as a route for power.

Not sure what will happen in England and hence Northern Germany, which was largely converted from England. You could see 3 elements, the Celtic, formal Catholics and Arian, all competing for the English kingdoms. With a divided church any of the 3 could end up the winner. The Catholics will still have the influence of the Papacy, although markedly reduced. The Arian will be represented by all the continental Christian kingdoms and hence will control potential trade and possibly also access to dynastic alliances. The Celts will have close proximity and also can point to the division between the other two groups. Other than the proximity of the Celtic church the same factors will probably apply when missionaries go to areas like Saxony. [Possibly with a weaker and less confident church you might avoid the sort of massacres Charlemagne was infamous for and have better relations between the Christians and the northern pagans.

Steve
 

Nikephoros

Banned
If Clovis turned to Arianism instead of Orthodox Christianity, I could see the Pope becoming as irrelevant as the Partriach of Constantinople became in OTL.
 
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