State(s) of War in Germany in ww 1 - about Cliches on Cliches

[NoMommsen]

As for the cliche of certain Kaiser-fanboys that the German Empire would become a happy and democratic constitutional monarchy in the aftermath of the war...

The German Empire was effectively run by a military junta during WW1. With the mobilization for war, Germany (except Bavaria) was formally transformed into a network of decentralised local military regimes. Under the Prussian Law of Siege from 4 June 1851, the fifty-seven Deputy Commanding Generals acted as agents of Wilhelm II. Protests and strikes were repressed by local generals.

Though I don't think that the war-junta would survive following a late German victory, the Empire would continue to be a lot more authoritarian than it had been before the war. Revolutionary socialism had become widespread as early as 1916/17, and even the SPD (corrupted and reformist as it was after the Burgfrieden) was heavily despised by large parts of the bourgeoisie and the remnants of the old nobility. I could see a new round of Sozialistengesetze beeing implemented. At the very least a crackdown on revolutionary socialism would take place and the SPD would continue to be pollitically isolated. It would be a bitter victory for Germany, and I doubt that nationalist rhetoric alone could restore the lost popular confidence. After all, the Kaiser had promised that the war would be over by christmas of 1914, instead the German people sufferes from years of starvation and millions of men lost their lives on the battlefields. And for what? For a place in the sun, for new markets German corporations could exploit? Germany, though victorious, would be a country plagued by popular unrest and brutal crackdowns, maybe even by coups and martial law during at least the early 1920s. The Empire would certainly not democratice in the decade following the war..

... an answer/comment as cliche IMHO with its presentation of a mixture of halfknowledge and cherrypicked facts out of context using in time disparaging and tendentious vokabulary to propagate/propagandate rather ... 'stronk' a certain interpretation of history.

Do you mind disproving my arguments then?

I will do my very best attempting to describe how, wherer and why I render your description/perception of condtitions in germany improvable.
... well ... where to start ? ...
Due to the amount of sinmgle topics mentioned it will take some time and space and as I don't have as many of the firt precondition I would like to have I will answer in several posts (plural).

Lets begin with :

...The German Empire was effectively run by a military junta during WW1. ...

Junta ... wiki :

In English the term generally refers to a military junta, the goverment of an authoritarian state run by high-ranking officers of a military.

I assume this is meaning you use this word here. ... only that what Germany became during the war lacks several attributes to be counted as such a Junta.

First :
There was no coup d'etat, neiter blodddy nor loud nor silent. What could be named "Martial Law" was introduced by the then proper authorities, the legal goverment by fully legal means. The same is valid for every other esp. domestic activity by official persons and/or institutions. Every action was covered by regulations and orders made and given by therefore entitled persons and/or institutions - of mainly civilian make-up.
And where military offices made orders reaching into the civilian sphere they also were entitled to do so by regulations made by the legal civilian goverment.

Second :
A "Junta" usually consists of a group of persons who before comming to power have conspired maily in secrecy to arrange for the "taking of power" and who afterwards continue to discuss measures to attune single actions as well as general courses of actions and politics between them to be presented as between them unifyed positions.
Well, there are no evidences at all that conspirational meetings, discussions, collusions ever happend esp. between the Deputy Commanding Generals ("DCG")of later or between them and members of the General Staff or the War Ministry or any other member of the goverment or persons near the goverment of the Reich.
Also that there were any such councils later on for coordination of single actions as well as general courses of actions and politics about and for reaction to the course of events of the war in the fireld of domestic, economical or foreign politics. Possibly rather to the disadvantage of the Reich as the already mentioned DCGs - at least at the beginning of the war - responded veery individually on the challenges their compared to the times the position was defined (1851)in its scope, responsibilites and effects now much enlarged and different assignments. The actions one DCG made not seldomly were almost contrary to those of the DCG right next their neighbour.

... With the mobilization for war, Germany (except Bavaria) ...

... well ...needs at least some 'precisioning'. This was written into the Constitution of the German Reich as the confederation of german states was further to be named after April 1871. Its section XI. deals with matters of war (Reichskriegswesen) including article 68 allowing the Kaiser to invoke the Prussian Law of the State of Siege of 1851 in case of War for the Reich.
The final provisions for this section states :

The regulations contained in this section come into use in Bavaria by further regulations of the Allaince Treaty of 23. Nov. 1970, sec. III. §5, and in Württemberg by further regulations of the Military Convention of 21./25. Nov. 1870. (translationand highlithening by me)

... was formally transformed into a network of decentralised local military regimes. ...

See above.already.
A 'network' would indicate kinda communication, counceling and attuning between its members on common matters. ... Simply did not happen.

So far my first comments further will follow.
However I would also recommend as a first stop this article for some more detailed informations on the the Deputy General Commands

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Did this really warrant its own thread?

 

[Alexniko]

I will do my very best attempting to describe how, wherer and why I render your description/perception of condtitions in germany improvable.
... well ... where to start ? ...
Due to the amount of sinmgle topics mentioned it will take some time and space and as I don't have as many of the firt precondition I would like to have I will answer in several posts (plural).

Lets begin with :

Junta ... wiki :

I assume this is meaning you use this word here. ... only that what Germany became during the war lacks several attributes to be counted as such a Junta.

First :
There was no coup d'etat, neiter blodddy nor loud nor silent. What could be named "Martial Law" was introduced by the then proper authorities, the legal goverment by fully legal means. The same is valid for every other esp. domestic activity by official persons and/or institutions. Every action was covered by regulations and orders made and given by therefore entitled persons and/or institutions - of mainly civilian make-up.
And where military offices made orders reaching into the civilian sphere they also were entitled to do so by regulations made by the legal civilian goverment.

Second :
A "Junta" usually consists of a group of persons who before comming to power have conspired maily in secrecy to arrange for the "taking of power" and who afterwards continue to discuss measures to attune single actions as well as general courses of actions and politics between them to be presented as between them unifyed positions.
Well, there are no evidences at all that conspirational meetings, discussions, collusions ever happend esp. between the Deputy Commanding Generals ("DCG")of later or between them and members of the General Staff or the War Ministry or any other member of the goverment or persons near the goverment of the Reich.
Also that there were any such councils later on for coordination of single actions as well as general courses of actions and politics about and for reaction to the course of events of the war in the fireld of domestic, economical or foreign politics. Possibly rather to the disadvantage of the Reich as the already mentioned DCGs - at least at the beginning of the war - responded veery individually on the challenges their compared to the times the position was defined (1851)in its scope, responsibilites and effects now much enlarged and different assignments. The actions one DCG made not seldomly were almost contrary to those of the DCG right next their neighbour.


... well ...needs at least some 'precisioning'. This was written into the Constitution of the German Reich as the confederation of german states was further to be named after April 1871. Its section XI. deals with matters of war (Reichskriegswesen) including article 68 allowing the Kaiser to invoke the Prussian Law of the State of Siege of 1851 in case of War for the Reich.
The final provisions for this section states :



See above.already.
A 'network' would indicate kinda communication, counceling and attuning between its members on common matters. ... Simply did not happen.

So far my first comments further will follow.
However I would also recommend as a first stop this article for some more detailed informations on the the Deputy General Commands

Dude, did you really create a new thread just to answer to one of my posts? You could've just answered on the original thread. Either way, none of that disproves the fact that the OHL basically assumed dictatorial powers.

 

[Riain]

Well, there are no evidences at all that conspirational meetings, discussions, collusions ever happend esp. between the Deputy Commanding Generals ("DCG")of later or between them and members of the General Staff or the War Ministry or any other member of the goverment or persons near the goverment of the Reich.

Who are the DCG? Are they the Corps Area commanders to whom the power was vested by the 1851 law?

Did the Reichstag provide the taxation and funding to pay for the actions of the Silent Dictatorship?

 

[NoMommsen]

Who are the DCG? Are they the Corps Area commanders to whom the power was vested by the 1851 law?

... the Deputy Commanding Generals ("DCG")of later ...

... see above.
Just some abbreviation not to have to write the 'full' title everytime

... Did the Reichstag provide the taxation and funding to pay for the actions of the Silent Dictatorship?

If you mean the measures thought for improvement ar arming the german army initiated after Hindi & Ludi took over forming the 3rd OHL ... yes, each and every penny.
... though the split-off of the USPD later didn't voted for anymore but as being without a majority ...

Dude, did you really create a new thread just to answer to one of my posts? You could've just answered on the original thread.

'Dude', you're the one who asked for and as you've piled up a quite some IMHO debatable statement it will take time and space as I've said already. ... reading helps.

I will try do my very best about.
... but as such an answer will take quite some tine and esp space to not derail this thread more than it deserves you might have a look here.

Either way, none of that disproves the fact that the OHL basically assumed dictatorial powers.

... the kind of unrected/unreflecting interpreted 'smash wording' I'm trying to argue against.

 

[Riain]

Just some abbreviation not to have to write the 'full' title everytime

I got the acronym, but who were they Deputy to?

you mean the measures thought for improvement ar arming the german army initiated after Hindi & Ludi took over forming the 3rd OHL ... yes, each and every penny.
... though the split-off of the USPD later didn't voted for anymore but as being without a majority ..

So how did thatwork in practice? Did Hindy and Ludy basically replace the executive arm of the government? Did they have to argue with or placate the Reichstag in order to get the money, or was it pretty much just a rubber stamp what H & L wanted? There was still a Chancellor, what did he do during the Silent Dictatorship?

 

[HelloThere]

Why can't you answer the question without creating a whole new thread. You know, like it's intended.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Why can't you answer the question without creating a whole new thread. You know, like it's intended.

Because derailing a thread is regarded as breach of forum etiquette. Some folk get het up when we have pages on an originally related subject that gains a mind of its won. Sometimes it is interesting, but when it grinds down to a "Yes" "No" argument we'd rather it was canned, or at least taken outside the main thread. TBH this was about the breaking point where I change my view from "interesting" to "not a-bloody-gain!"

Be considerate to your fellow forum members as NoMommsen has tried to be.

 

[Alexniko]

Because derailing a thread is regarded as breach of forum etiquette. Some folk get het up when we have pages on an originally related subject that gains a mind of its won. Sometimes it is interesting, but when it grinds down to a "Yes" "No" argument we'd rather it was canned, or at least taken outside the main thread. TBH this was about the breaking point where I change my view from "interesting" to "not a-bloody-gain!"

Be considerate to your fellow forum members as NoMommsen has tried to be.

Yeah, but we can have discussions likes this on chat. That's not what "After 1900" is made for.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Yeah, but we can have discussions likes this on chat. That's not what "After 1900" is made for.

One place on the forum I never frequent!

 

[Riain]

One place on the forum I never frequent!

Me neither.

 

[Anderman]

One place on the forum I never frequent!

We have lost to many members after they went down the rab..... eh went into chat.

 

[N7Buck]

Did this really warrant its own thread?

Yes it does, as this thread enlightens people (me) on the issue of whether Germany was a military dictatorship/Junta in ww1 and it's consuqences for post-war Germany.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Yes it does, as this thread enlightens people (me) on the issue of whether Germany was a military dictatorship/Junta in ww1 and it's consuqences for post-war Germany.

Nothing that couldn't have been in the original thread. In fact, the original thread already had a couple pages worth of back and forth over this matter.

Furthermore, if someone felt that debate warranted its own thread (fair enough) they could have made a thread on that topic without carrying their beef over from the prior thread, and they would have titled it more appropriately.

 

[NoMommsen]

Ahhh ... some question on the topic ;-)

I got the acronym, but who were they Deputy to? ...

Actually it was the Commanding General who was bestowed with the extraordinary powers of the Law of 1851.
But as he took to the field with the troops of his Corps ...

So how did thatwork in practice?

somethig much too seldom look into. ... easier throwing the word of the "Silent Dictatorship" around

Did Hindy and Ludy basically replace the executive arm of the government? Did they have to argue with or placate the Reichstag in order to get the money, or was it pretty much just a rubber stamp what H & L wanted?

They had ... or rather let others (War ministry, War office, the several Inspectorates, etc.) argue with members of the Reichstag the several Reichs ministries, the single state ministries, the officials officially in charge on Reichs- State-, Province-, Districtlevels. ... Though some order signed by Hindi or rather Ludi (Hindi did his very best to stay out of documented responsibility of almost everything) helped within such discussions but not to a forseeable or even guaranteed effect.

There was still a Chancellor, what did he do during the Silent Dictatorship?

Fighting them ... regarding influence on the Kaiser, the foreign politics, the diplomatic services, the economic elites, ...
The "Silent Dictatorship had to fight for its influence by itself.

edit :
Look into the hisory of their comming into being of the "Kriegsgwinnsteuer (Tax on warprofits)" and the "Hilfsdienstgesetz (Auxiliary Services Act)". Probably the most prominent examples of political civilian/military infight. As both jumped as tigers but landed as pussycats regarding their wished for impacts.

 

[NoMommsen]

I will not avoid to somewhat ... relativate the effect of the declaration of State of War (or "Imminent Danger of War" [Droghende Kriegsgefahr] to be precise) on Bavaria.
With the declaration above the bavarian King was obliged to issue a similar declaration in and for Bavaria what set the revised bavarian "Law about the State of War" of 1912 into function.
Therein was said that the DCGs were responsible to the War Ministry - and not directly to the King ... or Kaiser for that. But ... the bavarian War ministry under the Constitution of the Reich had to 'arrange'/report with the prussian War ministry. Therefor : in terms of the minitary 'necessary' measure - including keeping public calm - there was 'just' some further instances switched inbetween.
It was similar for whatever legal measures there might be. First the bavarian DCGs had to report to the bavarian ministry of Justice which had to arrange with the bavarian ministry of war which had to adjust with ... see above.

 

[NoMommsen]

... have titled it more appropriately.

Cliche on a cliche : rule on/in germany in ww 1​

... think I did so ...

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Cliche on a cliche : rule on/in germany in ww 1​

... think I did so ...

Nah too vague, and relegated to subtitle status.

"The nature of the Silent Dictatorship" bam direct to the point.

 

[NoMommsen]

Nah too vague, and relegated to subtitle status.

"The nature of the Silent Dictatorship" bam direct to the point.

You're probably right, unfortunatly I don't know how to change the title.

... but I would not like to take Alexniko the honor to have it initiated ...

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

You're probably right, unfortunatly I don't know how to change the title.

On your own threads you can use the "edit thread" option on the drop down menu.