Cliche Check: Andalus on the new world?

MOST of the "surviving Andalus with power" TL,Threads around him saw them having colonies on the new world,with having that TL's equivalent of Mexico as a colony.
Now.

Does they TRULY able to do that?
 
Why would al-Andalus head west?

Heading west is a really low percentage move, and colonising rather than trading even more so. A confluence of factors conspired to push Spain and later western Europe across the Atlantic, which are unlikely to be repeated by a surviving al-Andalus.

For starters, the trade routes east are controlled by coreligionists, and are unlikely to be closed to the Andalusians in the same way they were closed to the west. There's no incentive for them to develop oceangoing trade to compensate.

Nor do they have the ships. You can't cross the Atlantic in a galley - dhows aren't suited to it either. You need a reason for al-Andalus to build Caravel and Cog equivalents - but we've already established they have no reason to care about ocean trade, and they're unlikely to have cordial relations with the English or Dutch, who are building Cogs.

They don't have the institutions either - how are they going to finance these expeditions without a modern financial system? Europe developed banking thanks to the Crusades and the monastic system - al-Andalus will have taken part in neither, and Islamic finance forbids interest. Andalusi Jews might provide a workaround here, giving a link to Europe's banks, but then you run into problems of law - you need ideas like incorporation to emerge somehow, in order to mitigate the risk of sailing across the Atlantic. Incorporation was a byproduct of the monastic system, how do you get it to develop under Islam?

To make transoceanic colonisation possible you need to advance legal and political institutions to proto-industrial capitalism, and have societies with a great focus on seafaring trade. al-Andalus has neither.
 
Why would al-Andalus head west?

Heading west is a really low percentage move, and colonising rather than trading even more so. A confluence of factors conspired to push Spain and later western Europe across the Atlantic, which are unlikely to be repeated by a surviving al-Andalus.

For starters, the trade routes east are controlled by coreligionists, and are unlikely to be closed to the Andalusians in the same way they were closed to the west. There's no incentive for them to develop oceangoing trade to compensate.

Nor do they have the ships. You can't cross the Atlantic in a galley - dhows aren't suited to it either. You need a reason for al-Andalus to build Caravel and Cog equivalents - but we've already established they have no reason to care about ocean trade, and they're unlikely to have cordial relations with the English or Dutch, who are building Cogs.

They don't have the institutions either - how are they going to finance these expeditions without a modern financial system? Europe developed banking thanks to the Crusades and the monastic system - al-Andalus will have taken part in neither, and Islamic finance forbids interest. Andalusi Jews might provide a workaround here, giving a link to Europe's banks, but then you run into problems of law - you need ideas like incorporation to emerge somehow, in order to mitigate the risk of sailing across the Atlantic. Incorporation was a byproduct of the monastic system, how do you get it to develop under Islam?

To make transoceanic colonisation possible you need to advance legal and political institutions to proto-industrial capitalism, and have societies with a great focus on seafaring trade. al-Andalus has neither.

Thanks for clearing many things up.
So..Africa?
 
One would need to have a POD where a different, more united Al-Andalus could flourish. One that didn't break up into a zillion taifa states that could be picked off by the christian states of the north. One that had the luxury to look outwards. I think the more interesting PODs would have to start during the time of the Caliphate. Early in the Caliphate. You would need a much more consistent string of good Umayyad emirs. It would need a buffer of time to develop the requisite institutions and technologies necessary for overseas endeavors.

By the time the Almoravids and the Almohads rolled through, it would be too late. Not that they would have the disposition for such a project.

But, as samrobo stated, and for some of his reasons, Africa is far more plausible.
 

Deleted member 67076

Actually yes. First off however, you need Al Andalus to be more stabler and stronger than OTL, and to have the northern Christian states to be militarily crippled and unable to threaten Andalusia's prospects.

Second, the state needs reason to go west; they were mainly focused on the Trans Saharan trade. If however, the trade routes were blocked, there might be incentive to develop a sea faring route to West Africa which might lead to a discovery of the New World. Although, through this, you're more likely for Al Andalus to discover Brazil, rather than Mexico or the Caribbean.
 
Why would al-Andalus head west?

Heading west is a really low percentage move, and colonising rather than trading even more so. A confluence of factors conspired to push Spain and later western Europe across the Atlantic, which are unlikely to be repeated by a surviving al-Andalus.

For starters, the trade routes east are controlled by coreligionists, and are unlikely to be closed to the Andalusians in the same way they were closed to the west. There's no incentive for them to develop oceangoing trade to compensate.

Nor do they have the ships. You can't cross the Atlantic in a galley - dhows aren't suited to it either. You need a reason for al-Andalus to build Caravel and Cog equivalents - but we've already established they have no reason to care about ocean trade, and they're unlikely to have cordial relations with the English or Dutch, who are building Cogs.

They don't have the institutions either - how are they going to finance these expeditions without a modern financial system? Europe developed banking thanks to the Crusades and the monastic system - al-Andalus will have taken part in neither, and Islamic finance forbids interest. Andalusi Jews might provide a workaround here, giving a link to Europe's banks, but then you run into problems of law - you need ideas like incorporation to emerge somehow, in order to mitigate the risk of sailing across the Atlantic. Incorporation was a byproduct of the monastic system, how do you get it to develop under Islam?

To make transoceanic colonisation possible you need to advance legal and political institutions to proto-industrial capitalism, and have societies with a great focus on seafaring trade. al-Andalus has neither.

1. The trade routes wheren't closed. That is a persistently repeated myth. The trade routs where always open just plagued by middle men who would be just as willing to tax the Andalusi as anyone else. The real reason to sail across the atlantic was to open up a trade route Europeans would control and be able to tax each other with.

2. Al-Andalus is just as capable of evolving these institutions from what they had. Just because they're Muslim does not mean they are incapable of figuring out how to make a bank or incorporating a business. It may not be the same thing but it will probably be similar. I mean just for starters, there existed ITTL Islamic mercantile institutions which given time could have evolved into a proper capitalist business. In fact I'd say they could have that happen earlier than Europe because they don't have to work in such a roundabout fashion with monks and knightly orders when they already have trusts and the like.

3. Where do you get the idea Al Andalus lacked a seafaring tradition? Sea faring was a pretty big deal in pretty much all of the Islamic Mediterranean states and Al-Andalus wasn't different.
 
You wouldn't have an ocean-faring tradition is what he's saying. Galleys won't cross the Atlantic.

In the 16th C., refugees from Al-Andalus (Moriscos, specifically) were the core of the Sale Rovers who rather successfully and notoriously raided and pirated as far away as Iceland. Ocean-faring traditions can be established. Renegades and the like, can be useful to this process. ;) Bluewater ships were captured and/or built in N. Africa at this time.
 
1. The trade routes wheren't closed. That is a persistently repeated myth. The trade routs where always open just plagued by middle men who would be just as willing to tax the Andalusi as anyone else. The real reason to sail across the atlantic was to open up a trade route Europeans would control and be able to tax each other with.

2. Al-Andalus is just as capable of evolving these institutions from what they had. Just because they're Muslim does not mean they are incapable of figuring out how to make a bank or incorporating a business. It may not be the same thing but it will probably be similar. I mean just for starters, there existed ITTL Islamic mercantile institutions which given time could have evolved into a proper capitalist business. In fact I'd say they could have that happen earlier than Europe because they don't have to work in such a roundabout fashion with monks and knightly orders when they already have trusts and the like.

3. Where do you get the idea Al Andalus lacked a seafaring tradition? Sea faring was a pretty big deal in pretty much all of the Islamic Mediterranean states and Al-Andalus wasn't different.

1. The Andalusi will definitely have an easier time trading east and south than Europeans - the trade would be with coreligionists and in some cases with those of the same culture. There were no Islamic attempts to colonise the new world ITTL - and there's nothing magical about Spain's position. Its just easier, less risky, and more profitable to colonise Africa instead from their position. There was never any oceangoing trade from maghrebi Arabs (the indian ocean trade is a different story.

2. Then why didn't they develop ITTL? Even if you dont want to colonise anywhere, incorporation, issue of stock, and an advanced financial system are still incredible ways to increase a societies wealth. It's a lot more complex than Islam forbidding lending at interest, its about cultural institutions for distributing wealth that required very specific impetuses.

For banking, you need large numbers of wealthy Andalusia to have some reason to liquidate their assets in one location and relocate to another. This needs to be ongoing and predictable. There also needs to be a way for middlemen to charge interest on this transaction.

For incorporation you need to develop the idea that an institution can own something independently of its members. In europe this was monasteries, and the legal principle was transferred to businesses later. Its really hard to get this,because its such a pain to rulers in that it makes it harder to steal other peoples property. In europe,the church was strong enough to resist long enough for the idea of incorporation to take hold. Is there a group in andalusi society that wants to own property independent of inheritance laws, that's also powerful enough to resist the emirs?

Stock issue needs oceangoing trade really - though the caravan trade might be risky enough to encourage the development of a similar institution. If it were though, why didn't it develop?

Its possible for them to develop, but you need to have reasons for it. al-Andalus has to be radically different in the way it views wealth, investment and property to every other culture it is in dialogue with.

I already stated that andalusi Jews provide a way for it to develop with minimal pod's, but you still have the problem of why a people preoccupied with southern, eastern and littoral trading suddenly decide to invest (at huge opportunity cost) in oceangoing trade.

3. Was addressed above.

In a TL where Andalusia survives to the 1800s, it seems likely they might be a colonial bit player in the new world, but their focus will be on africa absent a huge POD.
 
1. The Andalusi will definitely have an easier time trading east and south than Europeans - the trade would be with coreligionists and in some cases with those of the same culture. There were no Islamic attempts to colonise the new world ITTL - and there's nothing magical about Spain's position. Its just easier, less risky, and more profitable to colonise Africa instead from their position. There was never any oceangoing trade from maghrebi Arabs (the indian ocean trade is a different story.

2. Then why didn't they develop ITTL? Even if you dont want to colonise anywhere, incorporation, issue of stock, and an advanced financial system are still incredible ways to increase a societies wealth. It's a lot more complex than Islam forbidding lending at interest, its about cultural institutions for distributing wealth that required very specific impetuses.

For banking, you need large numbers of wealthy Andalusia to have some reason to liquidate their assets in one location and relocate to another. This needs to be ongoing and predictable. There also needs to be a way for middlemen to charge interest on this transaction.

For incorporation you need to develop the idea that an institution can own something independently of its members. In europe this was monasteries, and the legal principle was transferred to businesses later. Its really hard to get this,because its such a pain to rulers in that it makes it harder to steal other peoples property. In europe,the church was strong enough to resist long enough for the idea of incorporation to take hold. Is there a group in andalusi society that wants to own property independent of inheritance laws, that's also powerful enough to resist the emirs?

Stock issue needs oceangoing trade really - though the caravan trade might be risky enough to encourage the development of a similar institution. If it were though, why didn't it develop?

Its possible for them to develop, but you need to have reasons for it. al-Andalus has to be radically different in the way it views wealth, investment and property to every other culture it is in dialogue with.

I already stated that andalusi Jews provide a way for it to develop with minimal pod's, but you still have the problem of why a people preoccupied with southern, eastern and littoral trading suddenly decide to invest (at huge opportunity cost) in oceangoing trade.

3. Was addressed above.

In a TL where Andalusia survives to the 1800s, it seems likely they might be a colonial bit player in the new world, but their focus will be on africa absent a huge POD.
1. There where no major Islamic states in a position to colonize in otl. The two most major ones even on the Atlantic where morrocco and Mali. Two very underdeveloped states with little ability to control within their own borders. Al Andalus on the other hand would definitely be a major islami power with a real presence as a state. It has to be in order to survive. Otherwise it's likely to be otl all over again.
2. While admittedly my knowledge of Islamic banking is limited as far as I know Islam in the very least had some system very much like that localized in al-Andalus during its lifetime. Incorporation though is definitely something that could have evolved in the Islamic world. Islamic trusts and charitable ventures managed land and assets without even a theoretical owner beyond a mosque. to It's honestly very similar to European monastic practices with the same idea.

3. I am still relatively unconvinced that al-Andalus couldn't develop a major ocean going culture. Most of the Spanish voyages where based out of Seville and it was the port of the Spanish new world for a long time. I fail to see why that wouldn't be the same under al-Andalus.
 
For banking, you need large numbers of wealthy Andalusia to have some reason to liquidate their assets in one location and relocate to another. This needs to be ongoing and predictable. There also needs to be a way for middlemen to charge interest on this transaction.

Like, I dunno, a mandatory pilgrimage to a city on another continent?

For incorporation you need to develop the idea that an institution can own something independently of its members. In europe this was monasteries, and the legal principle was transferred to businesses later. Its really hard to get this,because its such a pain to rulers in that it makes it harder to steal other peoples property. In europe,the church was strong enough to resist long enough for the idea of incorporation to take hold. Is there a group in andalusi society that wants to own property independent of inheritance laws, that's also powerful enough to resist the emirs?
Madrassas, absolutely. Granted, it's possible that they could lose the struggle with a united and centralized al-Andalus emirate, but if we lean more towards the zillion taifas, they won't.
 
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